Total Depravity and Choosing God
Re: Total Depravity and Choosing God
The book, its actually at the end of the book pgs 310-312
Re: Total Depravity and Choosing God
I have read the quotes, and have the following observations to make:
1. The quotes, of course, are about Christ's death, and are collected with a mind to document the early church's beliefs in a limited atonement. However, the wording of the earliest of the quotes (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Cyprian and Cyril) is as ambiguous as is the wording of those scripture texts which sound most Calvinistic on the subject, i.e., those that speak of Christ suffering or dying "for the church," "for His sheep," "for us," etc. These phrases do not worry non-Calvinists. We agree that Christ died for us. He died for all, which includes us. It can even be said that He died especially, in some respects, for believers, without suggesting that His death was not for all others as well (e.g., 1 Timothy 4:10).
2. Some of the quotes (e.g., of Cyril and Athanasius) sound as if they are affirming a universal atonement.
3. One of the quotes from Ambrose sounds like an affirmation of limited atonement, while the other sounds like an affirmation of universal atonement.
4. The quotes from Augustine and afterward are not surprising. They are Augustinian (that is, Calvinistic).
Justin Martyr (AD 160), Melito (AD 170), and Irenaeus (170) were earlier than most of those cited by Owen, and they certainly believed in the universality of the atonement, as can be seen in the following comments:
"The Father of all wished his Christ, for the whole human family, to take upon him the curses of all...His Father wished Him to suffer this, in order that by His stripes the human race might be healed." (Justin 1.247)
"Do not treat with scorn the stripes by which everyone may be healed, even as we [Christians] are healed." (Justin 1.268)
"He suffered...and He was bound for the sake of Adam's race..." (Melito 8.758)
"Christ fought and conquered...because He is a most holy and merciful Lord, and He loves the human race." (Irenaeus 1.447f)
For a longer collection of quotes from the church fathers concerning the Calvinistic ideas in general, see this thread: http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... +calvinist
1. The quotes, of course, are about Christ's death, and are collected with a mind to document the early church's beliefs in a limited atonement. However, the wording of the earliest of the quotes (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Cyprian and Cyril) is as ambiguous as is the wording of those scripture texts which sound most Calvinistic on the subject, i.e., those that speak of Christ suffering or dying "for the church," "for His sheep," "for us," etc. These phrases do not worry non-Calvinists. We agree that Christ died for us. He died for all, which includes us. It can even be said that He died especially, in some respects, for believers, without suggesting that His death was not for all others as well (e.g., 1 Timothy 4:10).
2. Some of the quotes (e.g., of Cyril and Athanasius) sound as if they are affirming a universal atonement.
3. One of the quotes from Ambrose sounds like an affirmation of limited atonement, while the other sounds like an affirmation of universal atonement.
4. The quotes from Augustine and afterward are not surprising. They are Augustinian (that is, Calvinistic).
Justin Martyr (AD 160), Melito (AD 170), and Irenaeus (170) were earlier than most of those cited by Owen, and they certainly believed in the universality of the atonement, as can be seen in the following comments:
"The Father of all wished his Christ, for the whole human family, to take upon him the curses of all...His Father wished Him to suffer this, in order that by His stripes the human race might be healed." (Justin 1.247)
"Do not treat with scorn the stripes by which everyone may be healed, even as we [Christians] are healed." (Justin 1.268)
"He suffered...and He was bound for the sake of Adam's race..." (Melito 8.758)
"Christ fought and conquered...because He is a most holy and merciful Lord, and He loves the human race." (Irenaeus 1.447f)
For a longer collection of quotes from the church fathers concerning the Calvinistic ideas in general, see this thread: http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... +calvinist