1 Corinthians 2:14

[Guest]

why are we lumping the natural man and carnal man under the same heading as not being able to recieve wisdom from God. Those that dont have the spirit cannot recieve the hidden wisdom from God not matter how smart they are. the carnal could recieve the things of God but because of their immaturiety are not ready for it. the natural man could never be ready as long as he doesnt have the spirit. "Those without the Spirit may very well be unbelievers" They have to be unbelievers. He that hath the spirit has the life, he that doesnt have the spirit doesnt have the life.
You say that the calvinistic interprtation of this cannot be correct, for it would say that the unsaved cant receive the gospel. The Bible doesnt have to say anything that you think it should have said. The gospel isnt even addressed. It also doesnt say anything about an uneliever being able to recieve and understand the gospel. theres alot of assumptions going on here. I am still not clear about this thing about those that dont have the spirit as just those that are believers that dont think spiritually. it seems thats a stretch but then again iv never heard that before so i need to look at it more. everything in a context doesnt have to connect. the context is important but all the particulars do not have to be lumped together as being an integral part of each other. thanks , jeff

Well now I'm confused. What exactly is your question?

Sean, to tell you the truth i cant remember. all i know is that my head is hurting after all this reading and going over and over it. maybe i need to take a break. jeff

[Guest]

why are we lumping the natural man and carnal man under the same heading as not being able to recieve wisdom from God. Those that dont have the spirit cannot recieve the hidden wisdom from God not matter how smart they are. the carnal could recieve the things of God but because of their immaturiety are not ready for it. the natural man could never be ready as long as he doesnt have the spirit. "Those without the Spirit may very well be unbelievers" They have to be unbelievers. He that hath the spirit has the life, he that doesnt have the spirit doesnt have the life.
You say that the calvinistic interprtation of this cannot be correct, for it would say that the unsaved cant receive the gospel. The Bible doesnt have to say anything that you think it should have said. The gospel isnt even addressed. It also doesnt say anything about an uneliever being able to recieve and understand the gospel. theres alot of assumptions going on here. I am still not clear about this thing about those that dont have the spirit as just those that are believers that dont think spiritually. it seems thats a stretch but then again iv never heard that before so i need to look at it more. everything in a context doesnt have to connect. the context is important but all the particulars do not have to be lumped together as being an integral part of each other. thanks , jeff

Well now I'm confused. What exactly is your question?

Sean, to tell you the truth i cant remember. all i know is that my head is hurting after all this reading and going over and over it. maybe i need to take a break. jeff

Honestly, with my wife just having our third child a week ago, it's hard for me to keep track of my thoughts as well.

[Guest]

why are we lumping the natural man and carnal man under the same heading as not being able to recieve wisdom from God?

Because that's what the Scriptures declare.

1 Cor. 2:14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor. 3:1-3 says And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal

Those that dont have the spirit cannot recieve the hidden wisdom from God not matter how smart they are.

True, but the hidden wisdom from God is above, beyond, and much deeper than the gospel message! Please notice that those with the Spirit, but who aren't yet spiritual/mature in Christ couldn't/cant recieve the deep things of God/hidden widsom of God either!

the natural man could never be ready as long as he doesnt have the spirit.

Yep. True indeed. The natural man can't recieve the hidden/deep things of God. However, that is not talking about the gospel message of salvation.

"Those without the Spirit may very well be unbelievers" They have to be unbelievers.

Your right, and I edited my above post.

You say that the calvinistic interprtation of this cannot be correct, for it would say that the unsaved cant receive the gospel. The Bible doesnt have to say anything that you think it should have said. The gospel isnt even addressed. It also doesnt say anything about an uneliever being able to recieve and understand the gospel. theres alot of assumptions going on here.

Yes, the Calvinist reading is off. The gospel isn't even addressed like you said, so my point is we shouldn't include the gopsel message of salvation as one of the things that the natural man can't receive. Yes, it also doesn't say anything about an unbelever being able to receive and understand the gospel. BUT, nowhere in the bible does it say that an unbeliever can't receive the gospel either. Show we shouldn't Calvinists shouldn't say they can't. To do so, would be assuming as well.

The context is important, for it is a means of discovering what the author of those passages was intending to say. We cannot say the context is saying one thing that means something today that is totally different from what it meant back then. That is all.

Soaringeagle, this is exactly what imtrying to say. the solid food paul was trying to feed ,even though in the same context, doesnt have to lumped together with the wisdom of God that the natural man cant recieve. maybe it is the same thing. if it is then great i have no problem. but there are two recipients the natural man (unbelievers) babes (Believers). i know it seems to fit the whole flow whats being said to the corinthians but paul isnt disciplining natural man but he is discipling the carnal corinthians. he is just showing the distinction between what they were before they were saved and what they are now and as a result of the gift of the hidden wisdom of god which is at their disposal they have neglected it and should be alot farther along in their christian maturity.

[Guest]

Well now I'm confused. What exactly is your question?

Sean, to tell you the truth i cant remember. all i know is that my head is hurting after all this reading and going over and over it. maybe i need to take a break. jeff

Honestly, with my wife just having our third child a week ago, it's hard for me to keep track of my thoughts as well.

Congatulations! i hope the wife and baby are well.

[Guest]

the solid food paul was trying to feed ,even though in the same context, doesnt have to lumped together with the wisdom of God that the natural man cant recieve.

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature.
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit... yes, the deep things of God.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.
3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people
3:2 ... for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able.

So, Jeffwall, are saying it's ok to teach that these Scriptures doesn't mean what Paul intended to say, and we can come up with ideas and put them into the text? Sure, we can spiritualize the text to be able to apply it to our lives, but if so, we must make sure we don't come away with a total different interpretation than how the author of the text (this being, Paul) would want us to interperet.

there are two recipients the natural man (unbelievers) babes (Believers).

Spiritual believer, are another way of saying mature believers
baby believers, are another way of saying immature believers. A baby in the world, can't be born and then recieve hamburgers and steaks, he must grow. In the same way, those Paul are talking about can't recieve the wisdom which he only speaks among those mature.

Can you begin to see that 2 Corinthians doesn't mean that a sinner can't recieve Christ (through the gospel)?

John 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name!

This goes for today too. They could receive Him, and so can people today. How do you recieve Christ? By believing in Him, or trusting him, which is a choice.

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is simply saying that the ability doesn't originate within man from his own ability! The Holy Spirit indeed initiates and empowers man to respond in faith. The Spirit places seed into the heart, convicts, and bring the gospel back into the remembrance of the sinner; This is what takes place during the drawing of God, but there is still a choice involved. God in His sovereignty chooses to work with man (another way of saying God co-operates with man), even concering the salvation of the sinner.

2 Cor. 6:1 We then, as workers together with Himalso plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

[Guest]

the solid food paul was trying to feed ,even though in the same context, doesnt have to lumped together with the wisdom of God that the natural man cant recieve.

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature.
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit... yes, the deep things of God.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.
3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people
3:2 ... for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able.

So, Jeffwall, are saying it's ok to teach that these Scriptures doesn't mean what Paul intended to say, and we can come up with ideas and put them into the text? Sure, we can spiritualize the text to be able to apply it to our lives, but if so, we must make sure we don't come away with a total different interpretation than how the author of the text (this being, Paul) would want us to interperet.

there are two recipients the natural man (unbelievers) babes (Believers).

Spiritual believer, are another way of saying mature believers
baby believers, are another way of saying immature believers. A baby in the world, can't be born and then recieve hamburgers and steaks, he must grow. In the same way, those Paul are talking about can't recieve the wisdom which he only speaks among those mature.

Can you begin to see that 2 Corinthians doesn't mean that a sinner can't recieve Christ (through the gospel)?

John 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name!

This goes for today too. They could receive Him, and so can people today. How do you recieve Christ? By believing in Him, or trusting him, which is a choice.

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is simply saying that the ability doesn't originate within man from his own ability! The Holy Spirit indeed initiates and empowers man to respond in faith. The Spirit places seed into the heart, convicts, and bring the gospel back into the remembrance of the sinner; This is what takes place during the drawing of God, but there is still a choice involved. God in His sovereignty chooses to work with man (another way of saying God co-operates with man), even concering the salvation of the sinner.

interesting! the only thing i got from that verse is Born of God and not by the will of man

2 Cor. 6:1 We then, as workers together with Himalso plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.