Why Faith In Christ Is Different

[seer]

This came in up the other thread. It is important so I thought I would start afresh:

If a beggar receives a gift does that mean he earned it? Does that make him an employee of the giver? Is his gift taxable income? Or is it no longer a gift if he accepts it?

The Arminian often says that there is no merit in accepting a gift. For instance, if someone offered you a million dollars, and you accepted, there was no merit involved.

First, you can not equate this with receiving Christ. Do you know of any rational person who would not accept the gift of a million dollars? I would dare say there are none - perhaps a billionare who does not need it. And that's the point - there are plenty of people (perhaps the majority of people) who will reject the Gospel and eternal life. So there is something deeper going on here, something more. Something that would be worthy of merit - if it came from us.

Second, I believe that faith is a gift, but not all men have faith according to Paul. So obviously faith is not gifted to all men. And if you say that faith is not a gift then we are back to the same old problem. Why are you different than your finally lost neighbor? Did you make yourself different or did God?

[Sean]

First, you can not equate this with receiving Christ. Do you know of any rational person who would not accept the gift of a million dollars?

Do you know any rational person who would reject Christ as Lord and eternal life?

there are plenty of people (perhaps the majority of people) who will reject the Gospel and eternal life. So there is something deeper going on here, something more.

If that "something deeper" is God alone, then man is not guilty of his sin, if God ordained all things (that would also include sin) and God's will can't be thwarted then God is the cause of sin, not man. Remember, God made man.

Something that would be worthy of merit - if it came from us.

That's your theology. Paul disagrees. If you were right, Paul would have to say that Abraham was justified by his works, and mean the time when Abraham believed God. Not even James muddles faith and works into something that are the same.

Second, I believe that faith is a gift, but not all men have faith according to Paul. So obviously faith is not gifted to all men. And if you say that faith is not a gift then we are back to the same old problem. Why are you different than your finally lost neighbor? Did you make yourself different or did God?

I've said many times that faith is a gift. You seem to think it's something else. Isn't a gift an offering to you that has to be received? Can it not also be rejected?

[seer]

First, you can not equate this with receiving Christ. Do you know of any rational person who would not accept the gift of a million dollars?

Do you know any rational person who would reject Christ as Lord and eternal life?

there are plenty of people (perhaps the majority of people) who will reject the Gospel and eternal life. So there is something deeper going on here, something more.

If that "something deeper" is God alone, then man is not guilty of his sin, if God ordained all things (that would also include sin) and God's will can't be thwarted then God is the cause of sin, not man. Remember, God made man.

Something that would be worthy of merit - if it came from us.

That's your theology. Paul disagrees. If you were right, Paul would have to say that Abraham was justified by his works, and mean the time when Abraham believed God. Not even James muddles faith and works into something that are the same.

Second, I believe that faith is a gift, but not all men have faith according to Paul. So obviously faith is not gifted to all men. And if you say that faith is not a gift then we are back to the same old problem. Why are you different than your finally lost neighbor? Did you make yourself different or did God?

I've said many times that faith is a gift. You seem to think it's something else. Isn't a gift an offering to you that has to be received? Can it not also be rejected?

Do you know any rational person who would reject Christ as Lord and eternal life?

If that "something deeper" is God alone, then man is not guilty of his sin, if God ordained all things (that would also include sin) and God's will can't be thwarted then God is the cause of sin, not man. Remember, God made man.

Now this is interesting Sean. If the God rejecting sinner is irrational how then is he guilty? We don't generally hold mentally ill people accountable for their actions.

I've said many times that faith is a gift. You seem to think it's something else. Isn't a gift an offering to you that has to be received? Can it not also be rejected?

How can it be rejected? If you have faith you love and trust God, if you don't you don't. You either have the desire for these things or you do not - and once you have the desire - well you have the desire.

[Sean]

We don't generally hold mentally ill people accountable for their actions.

So why would God hold people accountable for their actions if they are only able to sin and could never do otherwise? Are they not mentally ill?

How can it be rejected? If you have faith you love and trust God, if you don't you don't. You either have the desire for these things or you do not - and once you have the desire - well you have the desire.

You view of faith as a gift is different than mine. Where do you get the idea that faith is as you describe? It's almost like we aren't people made in the image of God. It's more like were faulty computers that God places a software update in, causing the ones He puts the update in to believe. If this were the case, God's will would always be done and no one would be punished. Since God made all men, and His will is always done then He should have nothing to complain about. Yet we see God complain throughout the bible, because people don't do as He commands. Why would He get upset with sinners if they are doing what God made them to do?

People make choices all the time. Why is the decision to believe God one they can't make?

[seer]

We don't generally hold mentally ill people accountable for their actions.

So why would God hold people accountable for their actions if they are only able to sin and could never do otherwise? Are they not mentally ill?

Sean, did this get by you? You said that rejecting Christ was not rational. So God rejectors are irrational (I fully agree). But do we punish the mentally ill? No we don't. It seems that God does... He holds God rejectors accountable even though they are irrational. So God's sense of justice may be a bit different than ours.

How can it be rejected? If you have faith you love and trust God, if you don't you don't. You either have the desire for these things or you do not - and once you have the desire - well you have the desire.

You view of faith as a gift is different than mine. Where do you get the idea that faith is as you describe? It's almost like we aren't people made in the image of God. It's more like were faulty computers that God places a software update in, causing the ones He puts the update in to believe. If this were the case, God's will would always be done and no one would be punished. Since God made all men, and His will is always done then He should have nothing to complain about. Yet we see God complain throughout the bible, because people don't do as He commands. Why would He get upset with sinners if they are doing what God made them to do?

People make choices all the time. Why is the decision to believe God one they can't make?

First, my model would not suggest that God is not really grieved with sin. He may allow , for a season, that which He hates for a greater good. Heck Sean, on some level you would have to believe this also. We have examples of God preventing men from doing evil in the bible. He could have prevented Adam from falling. He could have prevented Hitler from carrying out the holocaust. Have you ever asked yourself why God as allowed Satan to roam the earth all these centuries? Why He allowed him in the garden in the first place knowing the outcome?

And God's will is not always that simple to understand. He says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Then He says He will delight in their destruction.

[Sean]

We don't generally hold mentally ill people accountable for their actions.

So why would God hold people accountable for their actions if they are only able to sin and could never do otherwise? Are they not mentally ill?

Sean, did this get by you? You said that rejecting Christ was not rational. So God rejectors are irrational (I fully agree). But do we punish the mentally ill? No we don't. It seems that God does... He holds God rejectors accountable even though they are irrational. So God's sense of justice may be a bit different than ours.

I defined my term(s) in the sentence you quoted from me. I said: "So why would God hold people accountable for their actions if they are only able to sin and could never do otherwise? Are they not mentally ill?"
That was me taking a "shot" at total depravity. A doctrine I do not believe in. I do not believe God judges men who "could not do otherwise". Man has a nature that desires sin, but that does not mean man can never good choices. Otherwise it would make God unloving, according to His own word.

Have you ever asked yourself why God as allowed Satan to roam the earth all these centuries? Why He allowed him in the garden in the first place knowing the outcome?

Because God wanted/wants man to be tested.

[seer]

I defined my term(s) in the sentence you quoted from me. I said: "So why would God hold people accountable for their actions if they are only able to sin and could never do otherwise? Are they not mentally ill?"
That was me taking a "shot" at total depravity. A doctrine I do not believe in. I do not believe God judges men who "could not do otherwise". Man has a nature that desires sin, but that does not mean man can never good choices. Otherwise it would make God unloving, according to His own word.

Sean you said that God rejectors were not rational. Why would God hold such people accountable? Also are you suggesting that men by nature can keep the whole law of God? If they can't then why does God punish them for what they can't do? You are assuming that accountability assumes ability. Nothing in the Bible states that. Perhaps God punishes because He want to display His wrath and hatred for sin, while highlighting His grace towards the elect.

Have you ever asked yourself why God as allowed Satan to roam the earth all these centuries? Why He allowed him in the garden in the first place knowing the outcome?


Because God wanted/wants man to be tested.By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

The point is Sean, God does stop sin in scripture. He could have stopped Adam's sin. And Adam's sin had universal consequences. Perhaps this is not primarily about us... Perhaps God want to demostrate His attributes to rational creatures - and sin and evil were necessary for such a demostration.

Ok, that's it for a while...

[Sean]

I just wanted to mention that it's interesting that you said:

But do we punish the mentally ill? No we don't. It seems that God does... He holds God rejectors accountable even though they are irrational. So God's sense of justice may be a bit different than ours.

Perhaps God punishes because He want to display His wrath and hatred for sin, while highlighting His grace towards the elect.

So even thought it doesn't seem to make sense even to you, you will accept this proposition. I assume you do because you understand it to be biblical.
Yet in the "1 Cor 2:14 thread" you will not accept that faith is not considered a work, even though it's biblical. You rather try to argue that it can't be because to you it's illogical. So how do we decide which way to understand these issues? Is it by what we think sounds right to us or by what the bible says?

The bible gives many examples of people given the choice to obey God. When they do not, they are judged by God. This would not make sense if they didn't have the ability to make a choice between good and evil. The fact that God does judge proves His will was not done. Otherwise, God would not have anything to be angry about.