I've been a believer for 9 years and a Calvinist for just a few months. Im posting here on this topic because I think there are more of you who don't believe in Calvinism and I want to hear the negatives, the cons, why you're not a calvinist. This is because I am so new to Calvinism and want to hear from the non-calvinist side.
Before I was a calvinist I believed in almost an arminian idea of salvation. My former pastor at Calvary Chapel taught God saves but He looks into the future to see whom first chooses Him, then in turn He chooses the one who has decided to choose Him. Though this idea is no where found in scripture.
Next my current pastor teaches that this is a mystery, that the scriptures do teach that God chooses His elect from the foundation of the world, yet at the same time there is the universal passages like John 3:16 that speak of all people who believe can be saved. To me this sounds like a contradiction, God saves only His elect and anyone who believes can be saved. However my current pastor says, yes, this sounds like a contradiction, but its a mystery we don't understand. Just like the Trinity or Hypostatic Union seem to be beyond our understanding and even a contradiction, yet we believe this is mysterious. The scriptures teach it so we believe! There is mystery in the Bible. This may be true? But... this leads me to my next mystery...
What if TULIP is true, God saves some, His elect. And has predestined others to eternal damnation. God is completely sovereign, man completely lost, no one seeks God, no one comes to the light, the natural man received not God or His word and therefore must be saved by God. Is it possible that many of the arguments against this view are out of our lack of fully understanding this? Could not many arguments against reformed theology be because some of it is a mystery? Have we taken the mystery completely out? If God has chosen some to eternal life and others to eternal death, does not the potter have that right? But like I once may have said, "What about the clays free will?" Who is the clay to say why have you made me like this? Is it possible that man is responsible for his or her sins and guilty before God even if condemned to hell? Is it possible this is part of the mystery?
This is only something I have been recently pondering on. Like to hear from you.
Bro' in Christ
Rob
Reformed Theology
Reformed Theology
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_STEVE7150
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God saves only His elect and anyone who believes can be saved. However my current pastor says, yes, this sounds like a contradiction, but its a mystery we don't understand. Just like the Trinity or Hypostatic Union seem to be beyond
Maybe you become elect by being in the one elected which is Christ. Another words being "in Christ" is what gets you elected not because God arbitrarily picked Mr A and damned Mr B.
And maybe people are'nt eternally damned, maybe God will destroy evil which is what the bible says.
Maybe you become elect by being in the one elected which is Christ. Another words being "in Christ" is what gets you elected not because God arbitrarily picked Mr A and damned Mr B.
And maybe people are'nt eternally damned, maybe God will destroy evil which is what the bible says.
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Maybe the "free will" that saves is when we stop trying to save ourselves, surrender to God and say, "You are God, do with me what you wish."
...And God always knew you would make that choice. That is why Jesus Christ had to die so we would not have to die. That is why He is alive so we can be alive when we know that we are not God and can't save ourselves. It is still God's decision.
Does that make any sense?
...And God always knew you would make that choice. That is why Jesus Christ had to die so we would not have to die. That is why He is alive so we can be alive when we know that we are not God and can't save ourselves. It is still God's decision.
Does that make any sense?
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For me, the issue is mostly visceral.
First, I don't see that believing or not believing in TULIP would really profit me anything (hold on, don't take that wrongly). It wouldn't change the fact that I have a duty to follow Christ. It wouldn't change how I worship him.
It's no comfort to me that all those who will be lost could never have been saved anyway. I still want to reach them, and don't see that TULIP would influence me to do that.
Second, many Calvinists present their theology in an almost Gnostic way. "If you don't recognize that you were regenerated *then* saved, then you don't believe in the same God as I do." I know this is generally not the intent, but because many Calvinist interpretations tend toward esoteric (convoluted is actually more apt), it comes across as "sekrit knowledge".
So, since I'm generally turned off by Calvinists, and don't care for Calvinist explanations of verses I consider clearly non-Calvinist, and the fact that there's no way believing the other way could conceivably change anything about my daily life in Christ...(pause for breath)...I don't take to Calvinism.
I've heard all the arguments (I think), and Calvinism comes up short in explaining verses talking of God's wish for all to be saved, and that he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
I have to agree with something I heard Steve say once, that the crucial thing in deciding for a belief system is, which side best explains the passages that seem to weigh against it. Calvinism doesn't. To me, at least.
-Seth
First, I don't see that believing or not believing in TULIP would really profit me anything (hold on, don't take that wrongly). It wouldn't change the fact that I have a duty to follow Christ. It wouldn't change how I worship him.
It's no comfort to me that all those who will be lost could never have been saved anyway. I still want to reach them, and don't see that TULIP would influence me to do that.
Second, many Calvinists present their theology in an almost Gnostic way. "If you don't recognize that you were regenerated *then* saved, then you don't believe in the same God as I do." I know this is generally not the intent, but because many Calvinist interpretations tend toward esoteric (convoluted is actually more apt), it comes across as "sekrit knowledge".
So, since I'm generally turned off by Calvinists, and don't care for Calvinist explanations of verses I consider clearly non-Calvinist, and the fact that there's no way believing the other way could conceivably change anything about my daily life in Christ...(pause for breath)...I don't take to Calvinism.
I've heard all the arguments (I think), and Calvinism comes up short in explaining verses talking of God's wish for all to be saved, and that he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
I have to agree with something I heard Steve say once, that the crucial thing in deciding for a belief system is, which side best explains the passages that seem to weigh against it. Calvinism doesn't. To me, at least.
-Seth
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Man's free will
I once believed this and do hear it now from others, "what about man's free will?" They ask this after a discussion on God's complete sovereignty and man's sinful state. Does anyone know of passages that speak of the free will of man?
This is what I get from the Bible and my studies,
Man is sinful. He does not become a sinner by sinning. He sins because he is a sinner. He is depraved, which means that sin has corrupted all that he is: mind, soul, spirit, emotions, and body. Man is so engulfed in sin, so thoroughly touched by it, that there is nothing in him that merits or enables salvation. He, therefore, is born into a state of condemnation: "...and [we] were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Eph. 2:3). This is not to say that we are as evil as we can be, rather, that all of what we are is affected by sin.
The heart is often referred to in scripture as the deepest part of man and the center of his spiritual nature (Esther 7:5; 1 Cor. 7:37; Rom. 6:17; Deut. 29:4). From the heart man understands (Prov. 8:5), reflects (Luke 2:19), feels joy (Isa. 65:14), and experiences pain (Prov. 25:20). Because of his depravity (sinful condition), man's heart is not only impure but desperately sick: "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9). Also, it is out of the heart that we speak "...out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks" (Matt. 12:34), and what is in the heart of the person is what comes out of him: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man" (Mark 7:21-23). It follows then that man's understanding, reflection, feelings, and experiences are all stained by sin.
The unregenerate person is a slave of sin: "For when you were slaves of sin you were free in regard to righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). That means that doing good is not a concern or need of the unbeliever--and naturally so for a person with a sinful nature. The unregenerate is inherently against God: "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity...thus establishing peace" (Eph. 2:15). Enmity is hatred, bitterness, and malice toward an enemy. That was our relationship to God prior to salvation; there was enmity between us.
So, the Bible reveals the true nature of man. It is evil (Mark 7:21-23), sick (Jer. 17:9), a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20), at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), and, of course, naturally belongs in hell (Eph. 2:3). It then follows that out of his utterly sinful condition, only sinful desires and effects will follow. The question must then be asked, "How can a sinful person ever desire God?"
Rob
This is what I get from the Bible and my studies,
Man is sinful. He does not become a sinner by sinning. He sins because he is a sinner. He is depraved, which means that sin has corrupted all that he is: mind, soul, spirit, emotions, and body. Man is so engulfed in sin, so thoroughly touched by it, that there is nothing in him that merits or enables salvation. He, therefore, is born into a state of condemnation: "...and [we] were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Eph. 2:3). This is not to say that we are as evil as we can be, rather, that all of what we are is affected by sin.
The heart is often referred to in scripture as the deepest part of man and the center of his spiritual nature (Esther 7:5; 1 Cor. 7:37; Rom. 6:17; Deut. 29:4). From the heart man understands (Prov. 8:5), reflects (Luke 2:19), feels joy (Isa. 65:14), and experiences pain (Prov. 25:20). Because of his depravity (sinful condition), man's heart is not only impure but desperately sick: "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9). Also, it is out of the heart that we speak "...out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks" (Matt. 12:34), and what is in the heart of the person is what comes out of him: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man" (Mark 7:21-23). It follows then that man's understanding, reflection, feelings, and experiences are all stained by sin.
The unregenerate person is a slave of sin: "For when you were slaves of sin you were free in regard to righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). That means that doing good is not a concern or need of the unbeliever--and naturally so for a person with a sinful nature. The unregenerate is inherently against God: "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity...thus establishing peace" (Eph. 2:15). Enmity is hatred, bitterness, and malice toward an enemy. That was our relationship to God prior to salvation; there was enmity between us.
So, the Bible reveals the true nature of man. It is evil (Mark 7:21-23), sick (Jer. 17:9), a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20), at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), and, of course, naturally belongs in hell (Eph. 2:3). It then follows that out of his utterly sinful condition, only sinful desires and effects will follow. The question must then be asked, "How can a sinful person ever desire God?"
Rob
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Why does this "follow"?It then follows that out of his utterly sinful condition, only sinful desires and effects will follow.
How could a sick person ever desire a physician?The question must then be asked, "How can a sinful person ever desire God"?
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Steve,
How was your missions trip a few months back?
Why does it follow? I could be wrong but this is what I found from scripture thus far. I concluded that if the heart of man (not physical heart of course) is sick, evil, at enmity with God, then the outpouring of the state of man's heart results in him not seeking after God and hating to come to the light. I thought about Romans 3, it doesn't say, "some or most don't seek after me" but "none" see after God.
Next, the sick desires a physician. The natural man can understand natural things (Matt 6:3), but when it comes to spiritual things the natural man cannot understand or know them, its foolishness to him and is only spiritually discerned.
Rob
How was your missions trip a few months back?
Why does it follow? I could be wrong but this is what I found from scripture thus far. I concluded that if the heart of man (not physical heart of course) is sick, evil, at enmity with God, then the outpouring of the state of man's heart results in him not seeking after God and hating to come to the light. I thought about Romans 3, it doesn't say, "some or most don't seek after me" but "none" see after God.
Next, the sick desires a physician. The natural man can understand natural things (Matt 6:3), but when it comes to spiritual things the natural man cannot understand or know them, its foolishness to him and is only spiritually discerned.
Rob
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_STEVE7150
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Rbaitz, A lot of these apparent Calvinist verses are quotes from the OT where none of the jewish scholars ever saw Calvinism in these scriptures.
There are numerous OT verses that say the opposite of Calvinism that are just ignored like "I am a jealous God", so if God just arbitrarily chooses people for salvation what could he be jealous about? In other words, if God micro-manages everything including our desire for Him then verses like this are unexplainable.
There are numerous OT verses that say the opposite of Calvinism that are just ignored like "I am a jealous God", so if God just arbitrarily chooses people for salvation what could he be jealous about? In other words, if God micro-manages everything including our desire for Him then verses like this are unexplainable.
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Steve 7150,
What jewish scholars are you speaking of?
Why was God jealous? I've been married for many years and I love my wife. If a man tried to pursue my wife, to do whatever it takes to steal her affections or devotion from me, I would become jealous and also angry because of the sin. Does not God get angry with His chosen people if they are drawn away from Him? Idolatry drew the Jews away from their first love, the Lord their God. They committed harlotry or adultery with idols, false gods. This is what God was jealous about.
You said, "God micro-manages everything" within the Calvinist view. I don't know if that is the case. I haven't heard that, maybe in hyper-calvinism this is true?? But in Calvinism, and I cant speak for all, I and others see in scripture that man has a personality, traits, a nature, etc, etc, and is not a puppet. That God can work through or in the person not taking over his or her body like an evil spirit in the movies taking over a person controlling their thoughts or actions. Just like we all believe the Bible was written by men, inspired by God, God used these men but didn't take control over the person. God used Pharaoh and his wickedness for His glory, God didn't create the evil in Pharaoh but used it in His perfect plan. I think a lot of this is a mystery ad if the mystery is taken out then we run into problems. I might be running into one with Reformed Theology, but as I read the scriptures this is what I see. Just like I now see Dispensationalism is wrong, I do see A-Millenialism to be something closer to what the text of scripture teaches.
In Christ,
Robin
What jewish scholars are you speaking of?
Why was God jealous? I've been married for many years and I love my wife. If a man tried to pursue my wife, to do whatever it takes to steal her affections or devotion from me, I would become jealous and also angry because of the sin. Does not God get angry with His chosen people if they are drawn away from Him? Idolatry drew the Jews away from their first love, the Lord their God. They committed harlotry or adultery with idols, false gods. This is what God was jealous about.
You said, "God micro-manages everything" within the Calvinist view. I don't know if that is the case. I haven't heard that, maybe in hyper-calvinism this is true?? But in Calvinism, and I cant speak for all, I and others see in scripture that man has a personality, traits, a nature, etc, etc, and is not a puppet. That God can work through or in the person not taking over his or her body like an evil spirit in the movies taking over a person controlling their thoughts or actions. Just like we all believe the Bible was written by men, inspired by God, God used these men but didn't take control over the person. God used Pharaoh and his wickedness for His glory, God didn't create the evil in Pharaoh but used it in His perfect plan. I think a lot of this is a mystery ad if the mystery is taken out then we run into problems. I might be running into one with Reformed Theology, but as I read the scriptures this is what I see. Just like I now see Dispensationalism is wrong, I do see A-Millenialism to be something closer to what the text of scripture teaches.
In Christ,
Robin
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All,
Do you believe there is mystery to this topic? I read Steve will be debating James White. James never mentions mystery when on this topic. I wonder why?
What do you do with the passages that speak of election? (Rom 8-9, Eph 2) That God chose from the foundation of the world? If you say, "God looked into the future to see who picked Him" please give scripture reference. I haven't found one yet.
I think it was Wesley who thought that God brought a person into a neutral state where they can have the ability to chose God or reject God freely. I think he thought this because man within his current sinful state cannot chose God, that would be an ability his sinful nature cannot produce of itself.
What is the mystery parts of this topic? Is it the elect? We don't know who God has chosen. How God works within His creation as far as election and calling? What says you?
javascript:emoticon('
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Robin
Do you believe there is mystery to this topic? I read Steve will be debating James White. James never mentions mystery when on this topic. I wonder why?
What do you do with the passages that speak of election? (Rom 8-9, Eph 2) That God chose from the foundation of the world? If you say, "God looked into the future to see who picked Him" please give scripture reference. I haven't found one yet.
I think it was Wesley who thought that God brought a person into a neutral state where they can have the ability to chose God or reject God freely. I think he thought this because man within his current sinful state cannot chose God, that would be an ability his sinful nature cannot produce of itself.
What is the mystery parts of this topic? Is it the elect? We don't know who God has chosen. How God works within His creation as far as election and calling? What says you?
javascript:emoticon('
')Robin
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