John 3:16

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Fri May 04, 2007 7:38 pm

But it says "whoever" which means elect or non elect can be save if they decided to decided to believe.

Hey anothersteve I'm from Scarborough, Toronto.

Post by **__id_1512** » Fri May 04, 2007 7:40 pm

PAULESPINO wrote:But it says "whoever" which means elect or non elect can be save if they decided to decided to believe.

Hey anothersteve I'm from Scarborough, Toronto.

Paul, did you read my post? Where I talked about the translation of that phrase? If so, could you interact with it just a little bit? And answer the questions I asked you?

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Fri May 04, 2007 11:54 pm

Hi Jugulum,

I like what you said from your previous post.

You see, Jesus didn't come for condemnation of the world. He came for the purpose of the world being saved through him. Every person who believes is not condemned--but every person who does not believe is condemned already, through his unbelief

From what I understand you said that Jesus did not come to condemned the world therefore Jesus did not come to condemned anyone which means that no one is elect to be condemned or to be lost but our salvation depends on our own choosing.

You also said that every person who believes will be saved but these people are the one who represent the world therefore again no one is elect to be condemned.

How come the Calvinists teaches that those who are elect will go to heaven and those who are not will be lost which means separation from Christ.

I also think that the world in here is referring to the whole world and since humans are the representative of the world therefore the passage is talking about every single human being.

I think this passage contradicts to what John Calvin teaches.

Post by **__id_1512** » Sat May 05, 2007 12:21 am

PAULESPINO wrote:From what I understand you said that Jesus did not come to condemned the world therefore Jesus did not come to condemned anyone which means that no one is elect to be condemned or to be lost but our salvation depends on our own choosing.

Part of the problem, Paul, is that you're changing the wording--the passage doesn't say "Jesus did not come to condemn anyone". (Offhand, I think it's probably true.) Another part of the problem is that none of what I bolded is the subject of John 3. You're drawing inferences and making applications that the passage doesn't make.

I could just as easily argue that Jesus did not come to condemn anyone, so no one will be condemned. Jesus came to save the world through Him, and since the world means the world, He will save everyone.

I could do that, taking phrases in the passage and applying them as I want, but I would not be applying them in any way justified by the passage itself. So...I can't do it. Instead, since other passages (including this one, actually) clearly teach that not everyone will be saved, that's the doctrine I believe.

You also said that every person who believes will be saved but these people are the one who represent the world

I'm sorry...Where does the passage say anything like "those who believe represent the world"? It says that because God loved the world, He sent His Son so that every believing person will be saved.

Now, Paul, I'm going to ask you one more time to interact with what I said about the translation of "whoever believes in Him", and to answer the questions I asked you. Please, do me that basic respect.

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Sat May 05, 2007 4:07 am

Hi Jugulum,

Now, Paul, I'm going to ask you one more time to interact with what I said about the translation of "whoever believes in Him", and to answer the questions I asked you. Please, do me that basic respect.

I'm sorry Jugulum if I have deviated from your original question. My mind is a little bit disorganize.

Strange. Do you think Calvinists do not believe that whoever believes will have eternal life?

I know that they believe that whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life.

Or, to render it more literally, it's "all those believing in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." ("Believe" there is a participle, so it's "-ing". And "whoever" means something like "all, any, every, the whole", according to Strong's. And my e-Sword program says it's translated "all" about 975 times in the KJV,

I agree that all those believing in him should not perish.

But the difference between what I believe and the calvinists believe is that they believe that the the word whoever is confined to the elect ones only.
But the passage in John 3:14-18 interprets itself. Let's disect the passage and interpret it within its' context.

V.16 "For God so loved the world"

The world in here is referring to the people we know this because of the context. Who are these people(world)? Are these people(world) the elect ones only? The answer is no. The people(world) in here is referring to every single human being created by God.

"that he gave his only Son"

To whom did God gave his only Son? Within the context God gave his son to the world (people). Again who is the world? The world is referring to every single human being created by God.

"that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life"

According to your research that the word whoever means all, any, every, the whole. Who is the whoever in this passage? Again it is very important to place this word(whoever) within its' context therefore the whoever in here is referring to the people( world).
I also conclude that the word world and whoever are interchangeable because they have the same meaning within the context and its' meaning is people

Post by **__id_1512** » Sat May 05, 2007 8:38 am

PAULESPINO wrote:Hi Jugulum,
Now, Paul, I'm going to ask you one more time to interact with what I said about the translation of "whoever believes in Him", and to answer the questions I asked you. Please, do me that basic respect.
I'm sorry Jugulum if I have deviated from your original question. My mind is a little bit disorganize.

It's OK. I felt frustrated, because it seemed like I was answering questions without having my answers discussed. But I can understand how that can happen unintentionally. No hard feelings.

PAULESPINO wrote:Hi Jugulum,
Now, Paul, I'm going to ask you one more time to interact with what I said about the translation of "whoever believes in Him", and to answer the questions I asked you. Please, do me that basic respect.
I'm sorry Jugulum if I have deviated from your original question. My mind is a little bit disorganize.

It's OK. I felt frustrated, because it seemed like I was answering questions without having my answers discussed. But I can understand how that can happen unintentionally. No hard feelings.

Strange. Do you think Calvinists do not believe that whoever believes will have eternal life?
I know that they believe that whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life.

Right. Which is what the verse says. Or, again, more exactly, it says that all those believing in him will have eternal life. So... I'm agreeing with what the verse says.

Except you raise the question of how the phrase "the world" affects the meaning. That's a fair question to ask. But I don't think it does the work you're trying to make it do.

You keep saying that Calvinists think "all those who believe" or "whoever believes" or "all those believing" only applies to the elect. It doesn't. I mean, they don't think that. The statement of John 3:16 is true about every single human being on earth. Those believing will be saved. Those not believing will not be saved. That's an abundantly true statement about everyone in the world.

But you're trying to draw inferences from that about who will come to believe, or how we can come to believe. The question is, will we ever choose to believe without God stepping in?

And, actually, Arminians and Calvinists usually agree that the answer to the last question is "no". We won't choose Him without His work in our hearts. So the rest of the question is, does He work in everyone's heart the same way? And when He does work in people's hearts to bring them to faith, is it perfectly effective, or as Steve Gregg put it, is it more like "twisting our arms"?

But nothing in John 3 makes those applications. Nothing in John 3 tries to answer those questions. It doesn't say anything about God working to bring about belief. It's not part of the topic. So, if I read some other passage that is directly addressing those questions, then that's where I'm going to try to find my answers.

In other words, because John 3 isn't discussing who will believe or how they will believe, you can't make strong conclusions about those questions. At least, your inferences based on John 3 can't override clear teaching elsewhere.

Now, if those other passages don't actually teach Reformed doctrine, that's one thing. (For instance, we would have to look at John 6, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." And we would have to figure out if John 12:32 is talking about the same topic, even though one talks about the Father drawing and the other about the Son drawing, or is addressing something else. "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.") But you can't read John 3:16, get an Arminian notion firmly placed in your head even though it's not a question raised by the text, and then go read the rest of the Bible through that lens.

It's good that you're trying use context to interpret the verse, trying to see how the different phrases interact. But you're trying to answer questions that the passage doesn't ask.

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Sat May 05, 2007 12:12 pm

Thanks for your reply Jugulum.

God Bless...................

Post by **_Super Sola Scriptura** » Sat May 05, 2007 4:37 pm

Lets put it THIS way:

John 3:16 teaches UNLIMITED ATONEMENT, and states that God's eternal decree was not just to save some, and damn most, but to give His Son for the whole world, so that WHOSOVER WILL may come and be saved.

The decision to offer mercy was God's, as are all the arrangements and conditions, but the decision is mans. Such is the SOVEREIGN DECREE OF GOD. Calvinists should not reply back against their Maker because they don't like the way He did things.

Post by **_David** » Sat May 05, 2007 5:08 pm

SSS,

Actually, I do not think John 3:16 is, on its own, particularly Calvinist or Arminian. The questions the two sides debate over would be (to name just a few):
-can anyone believe or only those who are first regenerated
-did Jesus die for all people without exception or without distinction
-does God's will ever go unfulfilled in the ultimate sense of willing

I do not see how this verse answers questions such as those. I can completely understand how both sides have no problem incorporating this verse into their theology since it promises that whoever believes will be saved, which both sides agree to. How we come to faith - well, that is a question that is still debated. However, we cannot infer from this verse a limit to the atonement or lack thereof; it simply is not in the scope of the verse.