Hell book complete

[jriccitelli]

Thanks for sharing, Brother. My conclusion is tentative. I believe that the traditional view has the least exegetical support of all the options. Which of the alternatives may prove true will be known when the Lord comes (or sooner, perhaps, by people more intelligent than myself) (Steve).

The fear of God is not about intelligence, just good common sense, otherwise you might think only the wise could understand they 'need' to be saved. I'm sure your only speaking of the 'length' of damnation and not the possibility of getting out of hell. It seems God thought His word could be understood by anyone with ears to hear. I don’t think God planned to leave us ‘all’ in the dark concerning how and who would inherit eternal life: behold He stands at the door, the doors were locked, and outside in the outer darkness there was weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 22:13). How 'long' they will be gnashing teeth would be the question, but as to whether those outside get back in the Bible leaves no alternative (apologies to 7150).

I don’t know what you mean by 'tentative' because your statement sounds like your mind is made up;

“Probably because hell was not on their minds, and He never had the need to address it…” (Steve)

Not and never sound rather like you have made your mind up over what you believe. I really don’t know how you could make such a statement; it wasn’t the Buddha, Confucius or Krishna who spoke of Gehenna. The word Gehenna is in red letters a number of times in my Bible.

… His message, like that of His apostles later, was a message of salvation, not of damnation (Steve)

Yes, but salvation from what?? (Please - Steve, not Paidion) You know as well as I, Gehenna, death, punishment and destruction have been spoken of by ‘all’ the biblical prophets, and was well on the mind of those familiar with the pre-NT apocryphal books, Qumran sects and the like. True: death, judgment, the pit and destruction were not ‘news’ to those living in Palestine, or anyone who had ever even heard of Yahweh. The news was that there was hope and that a Savior was born. It was, and still is a message of salvation from damnation.

“The first summary of Jesus' teaching in scripture has Him saying, "Repent, and believe the good tidings!"

This isn’t the first summary of salvation although, repent has been consistent with the promise of life (as well as death) and the promise of a Messiah has been consistent throughout also, yet there was always a condition, now the condition is to ‘believe’ in his Son.

"good tidings of great joy that will be to all people"

The message was given to all, but who has believed our message? Did all believe? (Romans)

*Some, I know, think this should be modified to read, "good tidings of great joy which will be to all people—except for those who have loved ones or know anyone who is not a Christian—for them, the news is actually pretty bad!" (Steve)

Are you saying it is not necessary to be a Christian? I know God ‘may’ be charitable to some, but your tentative heart knowledge of scripture knows that this is walking on thin ice no matter what side of death your standing. I too have loved ones to who don't believe, but it is their decision, and their will, and it is God who said "unless you repent, you too will 'all' perish" (Luke 13:3), but I'm sure your book is unbiased and brings this up.

[steve7150]

"good tidings of great joy that will be to all people"


The message was given to all, but who has believed our message? Did all believe? (Romans)









Was God wrong when he said "will be" as opposed to "might be"? "Will be" might be an open ended scenario completed in the next age. Apologies to JR!

[jriccitelli]

Apology accepted. All ideas of a post mortem chance, realm or temporary existence for such is an extremely omitted and missing idea in scripture (I do not acknowledge Rev. 22:14-15 as such), so putting any hope or doctrine around it is dangerous. There are two next ages spoken of;
1: The Judgment and its judgments vs.
2: The realm of the righteous where the wedding banquet takes place and the believers are united with Christ and the heavenly Jerusalem.

Steve, you come across as if you are ‘simply’ 'presenting' different views, but I feel you are promoting Universalism as the alternative to the Eternal hell doctrine when Conditional Immortality seems to be the best supported and logical conclusion or alternative. I suppose your book gives ample time to CI but we will see. I think a book on differing views of ‘Judgment’ should be forthcoming and more appropriate. I feel Jesus did not speak a whole lot about ‘hell’ because it is to be eliminated when thrown into the lake of fire, as Jesus and Yahweh did speak alot more about ‘Judgment’ than Hell. I don’t want to rain on your book, so I will go to another thread to debate.

[steve]

JR wrote:

Steve, you come across as if you are ‘simply’ 'presenting' different views, but I feel you are promoting Universalism as the alternative to the Eternal hell...

I am in fact presenting universalism as an alternative to the traditional view of hell...and conditionalism as another. I "promote" all three views in the book (each gets a chapter-length opportunity to prove its worth, and each receives a chapter-length cross-examination). If one view seems to be promoted more than the others, it will be in the mind of the reader assessing the respective arguments for each case.

...when Conditional Immortality seems to be the best supported and logical conclusion or alternative.

If it is, then its arguments will speak for themselves, as with the other two views.

As for the points brought up in your second-to-last post, addressed to me, you may find your answers either by reading my book, or (if you prefer to save your money) by reading the previous threads on the subject here at the forum.

[CThomas]

I guess Steve makes a fair point that it is probably at least theoretically possible that reading the book could influence JR's assessment of its contents.

CThomas

[steve]

A few answers to JR:

The fear of God is not about intelligence, just good common sense, otherwise you might think only the wise could understand they 'need' to be saved.

I was not discussing the fear of God. I was discussing the ability to choose between the various views of hell. I would have thought that I had been clear on this.

I don’t know what you mean by 'tentative' because your statement sounds like your mind is made up;

My mind is made up that the scriptures are true. I have not fully made up my mind as to which view the scriptures teach (it may turn out to be a combination of them).

I really don’t know how you could make such a statement; it wasn’t the Buddha, Confucius or Krishna who spoke of Gehenna. The word Gehenna is in red letters a number of times in my Bible.

Jesus did indeed talk about Gehenna—as did Jeremiah and Isaiah. The latter two did not intend for the term to refer to a post-mortem judgment. Whether Jesus did or not is an open question.

Yes, but salvation from what?? (Please - Steve, not Paidion) You know as well as I, Gehenna, death, punishment and destruction have been spoken of by ‘all’ the biblical prophets, and was well on the mind of those familiar with the pre-NT apocryphal books, Qumran sects and the like.

If you can show that Gehenna and the destruction mentioned by "all" the biblical prophets speak of post-mortem fates, you will have gone a great distance toward showing that the case for your view is the strongest of the three.

The message was given to all, but who has believed our message? Did all believe? (Romans)

No. All did not believe. What is disputed is whether or not all shall believe eventually.

Are you saying it is not necessary to be a Christian?

Hmmm. I can't imagine what statement of mine could have aroused this inquiry.

it is God who said "unless you repent, you too will 'all' perish" (Luke 13:3), but I'm sure your book is unbiased and brings this up.

Can you tell me why you believe that "perish" in this verse (and in verse 5) should be applied to any fate beyond physical death? Were the innocent Galileans who were killed while worshipping in the temple lost?

And, yes, my book discusses these verses.

[jcursey]

The new book really sounds intersting. I no longer am able to receive the radio program, did that come to an end? thanks, joe

[steve]

The program is on in some locations, but we have had to drop a few stations in the last year. Where do you live?

[jriccitelli]

I was not discussing the fear of God. I was discussing the ability to choose between the various views of hell. I would have thought that I had been clear on this (Steve).

I thought you would catch the connection between ‘the fear of God’ - 'Hell' and ‘punishment’.
But, I will answer this in another thread: 'Punishment and the fear of God' http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=4636

Steve, I do want to continue to thank you for answering my rebuttals and posts. It is still an honor and I do sincerely respect you and your deep biblical knowledge.

[john6809]

I just got a notification from CBD - Steve's new book has been shipped. Looking forward to receiving it in the next few days.