Genesis 4:13ff ("Presence of the Lord")

[darinhouston]

I never noticed this either -- I always considered Adam and Eve's ouster from the Garden (and the consequence of the Fall for all mankind after Adam and Eve) as being the time at which mankind was "sent out" from the presence of the Lord (only thereafter to be through Prophets and ultimately restored in Christ). Yet, here, it appears that they (at least Cain) were still in His presence even outside the Garden until Cain was sent away further - East of Eden (and perhaps others continued to be in the presence of the Lord even after that?).

13Then Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is too great to endure! 14Look! You are driving me off the land today, and I must hide from your presence. I will be a homeless wanderer on the earth; whoever finds me will kill me.” 15But the Lord said to him, “All right then, if anyone kills Cain, Cain will be avenged seven times as much.” Then the Lord put a special mark on Cain so that no one who found him would strike him down. 16So Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

[dwight92070]

Well, Genesis 3:22-23 says that "the Lord God sent him (Adam and Eve) out from the garden of Eden", so that they would not eat from the tree of life, but it does not say that the Lord's presence left them. In fact, the Lord even carried on a conversation with Cain, urging him to master his desire to commit sin. When Cain did not obey the Lord, and even gave in to the sin of murder, the Lord gave him a punishment, but still did not abandon him. IT WAS CAIN WHO WENT OUT FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, not the Lord leaving Cain. It appears that, even then, Cain could have repented and stayed in the Lord's presence, but he chose not to.

[darinhouston]

Exactly , though Cain was “sent” away and we have no indication that he had a choice at that point. He did object. But the broader point is whether this calls into question the prevailing view that sin caused not only physical death but spiritual death in the sense that from that point in all mankind was separated from God other than special prophets and generally through clouds and fire or in the Holy of Holies until Christ provided a way back to commune through the Holy Spirit.


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[dwight92070]

Exactly , though Cain was “sent” away and we have no indication that he had a choice at that point. He did object. But the broader point is whether this calls into question the prevailing view that sin caused not only physical death but spiritual death in the sense that from that point in all mankind was separated from God other than special prophets and generally through clouds and fire or in the Holy of Holies until Christ provided a way back to commune through the Holy Spirit.


Dwight - We are also not told that he did not have a choice - to repent, at least. We presume that, after Abel's death, Adam, Eve, Seth, Enosh, and many others called on the name of the Lord, so I cannot believe that they were separated from God's presence. The Lord never told Cain that he would "be hidden from the face of the Lord", but Cain, it appears, assumed that (Genesis 4:14). The Lord did tell him that he would be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth - but where could he go from the Lord's presence? It does say in verse 16, that he went out from the presence of the Lord, but how could that mean anything other than him ending his conversation with the Lord, and relocating - since God is omnipresent? If Cain was separated from the presence of the Lord, it was because, first, he falsely assumed that that would be the case, and second, he chose not to repent. If Cain did not have a choice (to repent and turn back to the Lord), then why would any murderer have that choice today?

Dwight - I could be wrong, but I don't believe that we are born spiritually dead. Paul said, "I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died." Romans 7:9 He is saying that before he reached the age of accountability, he was spiritually alive, but when he understood the Law of God, he recognized that he was a sinner, and he spiritually died. So I don't accept the prevailing view that Adam's sin caused all mankind to be separated from God - rather, each young man and each young woman, when they reach the age of accountability, has their eyes opened to their sin, and then they die spiritually.