Steve7150 you wrote:I tell you the truth if anyone keeps my word , he will never see death." John 8.51 The jews asked if he was greater then Abraham who died and Jesus did'nt modify his statement by saying "well i really meant they will die but their next conscience moment will be the resurrection."
He simply said "he will never see death."
Steve, the other issues you raised, I have already discussed, and believe to have shown that they do not actually say that people’s spirits or “souls” go directly to heaven at death. But this one, I have not addressed until now.
Similar words of Jesus are recorded in John 11:25,26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die." RSV
If Jesus really meant “shall never die”, He is contradicting Himself ---- unless He is using the word “die” in two different senses in the same sentence. In “though he die” He is obviously speaking of physical death. Jesus indicates that a person who believes in Him may die a physical death. Does He suddenly, in the same sentence, use the words “never die” to mean that a believer’s spirit or “soul” shall never be destroyed? It doesn’t seem likely.
In John 8:51, in the passage to which you referred, Jesus literal words as recorded in Greek were:
θανατος οὐ μη θεωρησῃ εἰς τον αἰωνα
death no way he shall see into the age
Although translating the double negative “οὐ μη” as “never” seems to make sense sometimes, that is not its meaning. It’s more like today’s phrase “no way”.
Examples in the book of Matthew in which “never” does not seem to work are 5:18, 10:23, 10:42, 15:5, 24:21, 25:9.
There are many others.
The phrase “εἰς τον αἰωνα” seems to have been a Greek idiom for “permanently”.
For example, in John 8:35:
The slave does not remain in the house permanently; the son remains permanently.
This, in spite of the fact that most translations of this verse render “εἰς τον αἰωνα” as “forever” .
Of course, the slave does not remain in the house
forever. Neither does the son. On the other hand, an arrangement which is
permanent is stable for a longer period of time than one which is
temporary, but a permanent arrangement certainly need not continue
forever. Your permanent driver’s license will serve you better than a temporary license, but it won’t serve you forever. Indeed, it won’t necessarily serve you even for a life time, not if you attain a seriously bad driving record, or if you become so old as to be a danger on the road.
So I would render “θανατος οὐ μη θεωρησῃ εἰς τον αἰωνα” as “No way will he experience death permanently”. (The word "see" even in English is often used in the sense of experience").That is “No way will he remain in a state of death permanently” In other words, he who believes in (entrusts himself to) Christ will be raised to life.
Four times in John chapter 6, the apostle John records that Jesus said He would raise to life in the last day those who are His.
John 6:39… and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54… he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
But as you pointed out, if my understanding of the Greek words is correct, it must be consistent with the Jews’ response. You indicated that they pointed out to Jesus that Abraham and the prophets died. So “Who do you claim to be?” or as we would say to day, “Who do you think you are?”
At first glance, it appears that the Jews understood Jesus’ statement as most translations have it. But DID they? If Jesus had meant, as I believe He did, that whoever believes in Him will not remain dead, but will be resurrected, the Jews may still have had that response. If they were Sadducees, they would have believed that Abraham and the prophets were dead and gone forever. The Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection. If the Jews in question were Pharisees, they may have believed in reincarnation as many of them appeared to have done. Recall the ones who asked Jesus, “Who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind?” When could a person sin in order to be born blind, if not in a previous reincarnation? I think people who believed in reincarnation would have a problem with the claim that whoever believes in Christ would not remain dead, but would live again after Jesus raised him to life again at some point in the future.
