General Question about various beliefs held by various people

[njd83]

The Open View just takes the texts that seem to refer to openness of the future to be determined by free wills--as such; and the texts that seem to indicate future foreknowledge--as such.

[njd83]

Thanks for chiming in Homer

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, but if you want to post a quote of a scripture that indicates God's future foreknowledge of a person's free will choice, please do so we can look at an example.

We could also post a scripture of God's pondering about a future free will choice, for good or for bad, but not declaring certain foreknowlege about the outcome.

[Homer]

njd83,

Here is a short article that is close to my view, with some questions/answers following:

http://jackcottrell.com/?p=2490#:~:text ... free%20wil

Where do you see fault with Cottrell's reasoning?

Thanks, Homer

[njd83]

Thanks Homer

That's a good article and a good metaphor.

But I think its just a construct to hold on to foreknowledge.

It would be cool if some well versed people put down the heavy hitter verses for foreknowledge. Maybe I can also try to look them up. I know the "Dwells in Eternity" is a big one, but the Hebrew does not convince me.

I like the idea of "free will" being literally created and defined by God as "Choice which is not 100% foreknown or predictable by any observer in any frame of reference, including God." And thus the immaterial soul which possesses this "free will" literally can be spontaneous in unforeknowable ways, just like the Spirit of God, or God's own being, who we are made in the likeness of, has its own mystery of a Free Agent, Free Will and Free Mind, although incorruptible. The way God has dealt with me spiritually in the past has felt completely like a dynamic type of thing, a Free Will Agent, but a omniscient one. It matches up with the texts that Boyd goes over God dealing in dynamic non-foreknowledge types of ways.

I think the idea that God is "outside of time" or "dwells in eternity" is a crucial concept to search out, that definitely would strongly support God's complete and exhaustive foreknowledge.

I really don't know what to think about "God being outside of time such that he has complete and exhaustive foreknowledge as if watching a video tape of the future".

It seems like God's crowning achievement in creating free will agents to possibly become his children would be now reduced to chess pieces he already knows will play out a certain exact way. How is that a Father offering his children eternal life and existence with him, by freely choosing to hearken and love him?

I know the video tape construct is made to just kind of wipe away this confusing aspect, and give glory to God, but it just doesn't settle very well.

It rings way way way more true that God literally enjoys creating us, free will agents, to offer us the choice to exist with Him. Free will as "free" is 100% part of that equation. Anything that detracts from or confuses free will as being not actually "free" really detracts from the whole point God made us.

The church father Irenaeus also talks about how "Jesus came to persuade us, not compel us, to salvation. Because there is no violence in the character of God". God does not force. But if God already knows our free will, but is dealing with us in a dynamic way as if he did not, knowing it wont end up working with some but is still trying to persuade us without forcing us, doesn't that seem off?

I mean, like an example would be 2 Peter 3:9:

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

If he does not wish for any to come to repentance but already knows the video tape that some will not come to repentance, doesn't that seem a bit off? He is wishing for something he already knows will not come to pass.

In complete and exhaustive foreknowledge, literally, God knew all those who would reject him and end in Hell and created the world anyways and is watching it play out. That's really a frightening prospect to me. No matter how you soften that with "God not having any causative effect on the free will choices". The other view puts Free Will 100% responsible, and puts God in the best light every time you see him command us to do what is right, he actually WANTS US to win the prize of our free will, Life with Him. He's not saying in he back of his mind, "But I know they will end up rejecting me".

edit Add on:

I sympathize you in this matter but one thing I do not get is why God can not have advance knowledge of what a free will person will freely choose to do in the future.

I am not saying that God "cannot" have it, or that He does not have it. I don't know. I am saying two things.

One, the texts of the bible imply that God is dealing with people as if he did not have all foreknowledge, as in a dynamic way. Conditional statements. Questions. Testing to see what's there. etc.

Two, complete and exhaustive foreknowledge does not make sense if we consider the idea that Free Will is so important to God creating agents which he desires to choose right and choose life and choose him, to be his children. God literally must give an actually free "free will" so the person can legitimately make the choice for themselves if they want God. Gods whole purpose of creating agents in his image was to give them an actual free free will such that the choice of God would be completely glorifying to God because it was done completely by choice and via God's leading, convicting, love, patience, persuading, etc. Of course God knows its the right choice, and he's so right about creating us, giving us free will and commanding us to do what is right, that he was willing to die to prove it to us. To prove the devil wrong.

But if God foreknows a world and all those going to hell, and creates it anyway. Who exactly is he trying to win over in an authentic dynamic way, dealing with the world each day, if he already sees not only the whole world play out on a video tape, but he sees himself play out as well since he knows exactly what he will do and exactly what all the responses will be.

That paints a rigid world. A dynamic free will existence makes way way more sense.

[Homer]

If we are praying for an unsaved person we care about, what is it we expect, or hope, God will do..................

If we are a Calvinist?

If we are open theist?

If we are Arminian?

(By Arminian I mean "neither of the above".)

[njd83]

A simple faith is just a practical faith. Like the sermon on the mount is just practical. So, a simple and quick answer is when you pray you are increasing the Kingdom Of God to whatever extent you are able at that time. The Kingdom of God is the loving reign of God, but not coercion or force. Same with every Kingdom obedience, you are increasing the Kingdom of God to whatever extent. A revival would be a large increase in the Kingdom of God, so to speak. Fasting would probably be thought as adding fuel the power of prayer. Group prayer and intercession. Etc.

When someone starts to try to understand theology is gets confusing. I think because texts seem to say contradictory things. Also because its a translated English text. I am not a believer that the Bible contradicts itself, but that its understandable--and that there is only one correct interpretation of a topic or text or event according to the original meaning the author had in mind. Evolution for example would not be anywhere near the original meaning of Moses, IMO.

For whatever reason, understanding God in these matters matters a lot to me and has a large effect on my worldview, my life and my faith.

I already know God exists. But what kind of God is He?

Calvinism paints a very scary picture of God. Not the God that seems to be the real God I've experienced and what I've heard others' experiences have been.

I've also experienced the dark side of this situation, and so that's not something I can doubt either.

I have studied through many sermons and explanations of all kinds of difficult texts and topics that are very hard for outsiders and unbelievers to understand and rationalize. Like the slaughter of the Canaanites, etc etc. I actually have a very satisfying understanding on the vast majority of these difficult texts and topics, EXCEPT the one we are discussing here.

The foreknowledge, predestination and Sovereignty of God ideas have always been confusing to me, beyond compare. And I have tried to listen to them being explained and have tried to accept them and believe them, using all the common explanations given in this thread and elsewhere.

So basically, you can just choose the simple faith idea. You know Jesus exists. You know he is good. You know prayer is part of the faith.

You can try to search out these theological matters if you want, or you can say, screw it I don't care, I know God is good and I am going to pray for the salvation of my unsaved friend.

But remember, whether God has foreknowledge or not, the person really must have a free will, so for all practical purposes this person can choose to reject God no matter how much you pray. If they are at all open to the loving presence of God, and the conviction that flows from that, then I would not personally give up hope in prayer. If they are hardened and wicked and wont even listen to anything you have to say, I'm not sure what I would do, but probably ask God for his wisdom on the subject, pray what he leads me to pray, and then forget about it.

Sometimes things come around in time. Sometimes after I actually do almost completely forget about it.

[dizerner]

If we are praying for an unsaved person we care about, what is it we expect, or hope, God will do..................
If we are Arminian?

(By Arminian I mean "neither of the above".)

Maximally grace an individual.

Never overrun their free will, but people struggle first to believe, and second to want what is righteous.

That's where grace comes in.

[njd83]

I like that dizerner

Maximally grace the individual

That blesses me hearing you say that

[dizerner]

I like that dizerner

Maximally grace the individual

That blesses me hearing you say that

* high five*

let's keep praying!

[dizerner]

Here's another thread you might enjoy:

https://forums.carm.org/threads/why-did ... orld.8282/

Carol is a fan of Greg Boyd and has some similar issues.