The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu May 05, 2016 10:34 pm

jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote: I understand some Christians are put to death for their faith. I am saying that if a person requires someone else to die for believing in the death penalty, while they themselves do not or that they do not believe in God, they are not standing for God or for God's Law they are actually fighting against it, violating it whether they believe Christians should not judge or they are hypocrites or not.

I don't understand the entire comment, and especially the underlined portion. When did we talk about killing someone for believing in the death penalty while not believing in God?

My point is that God's people used to be called as a nation to operate as a unified priestly and political entity. In the OT, God's people had an exclusive civil authority as an exclusive nation which they no longer have. NOW, God's people are among the nations, no longer to be a self-ruled, physical nation. Thus, there is no longer a civil authority working in direct covenantal submission to God. So you will not find ANY civil government wielding the Mosaic Law because there is no longer such a covenanted civil government.

Christians find themselves a spiritual nation, spread out among many civil nations, some of which use their civil laws in the manner a Christian would approve of, and some of which use their civil laws against Christians and their beliefs.

If a person can only be held to the standard of the law if they say they observe it, whether this is because this means you know what the law is or not, is it those who do not claim to observe the law who are putting to death those who do? To endeavor to observe the law or to try to obey is better than accusing someone on account of their being religious or a Christian, Judaism, the laws of nations, or even not.

No idea what point you are responding to here or what you mean.

Some people laugh at or put down those who observe or attempt to observe the law, whether these are saying they do or not. Are those who observe the law but don't say they do exceptional or doing anything to stand up for righteousness? Do I have a gift if I can talk about the law, rather than it being a curse?

I'm confused with this one as well. I'm assuming by law you mean the Mosaic Law. Paul does mention that those who retain some sort of Mosaic Law idea of holy days or uncleanliness are of weaker faith, if that is what you mean. But those of weaker faith should not be put down or laughed at.

As for if you have a gift to talk about the Mosaic Law, I don't see how it is a gift or a curse to be able to talk about a topic. That question also confuses me.

"[Does the the Mosaic Law] death penalty exists for the new covenant believer?"

Returning to your original question, I have hopefully clarified it and still done justice to your intent.

The answer is no because the new covenant believer is not under Mosaic civil authority in the body of Christ.

To rephrase what I said at the beginning of this post:

The Mosaic civil authority was established through God's covenant with an exclusive, physical, civic nation of his people - a nation which no longer exists.

God's people as Christians now submit to the civil laws under which they find themselves in various nations. Thus, the death penalty that now exists for the "new covenant believer" is not the Mosaic one, but whichever, if any, they find themselves under depending upon the nation/state they live in - the death penalty each Christian finds themselves under might work with the Christian's beliefs or in opposition to them.
Torah law, the Civil Law of Judaism and the law of the land of Israel God's Chosen Nation to whom He gave the Torah most definitely existed in the land and apart from the land many times. Indeed today the nation of Israel still exists.

As for what law I am talking about I believe all law to be derived from the Law of the nation of Israel, the Law of Moses or Mosaic Law as you have called it. Torah law involves that which is termed Civil Law and the law of nations being civil is a result of this. That is, we have learned from God's Law.

So the part that was confusing to you, I have had more than one post. The point is that Christians should not be put to death for observing God's Law.

I do not believe Jesus abolished the Law. I do believe a person can only be saved in Jesus and not by the Law. This does not mean the Law was done away with.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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jaydam
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Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by jaydam » Fri May 06, 2016 12:08 pm

Let me try going about this a different way:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:I do believe a person can only be saved in Jesus and not by the Law.
So why would you "do" the Law then?

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Fri May 06, 2016 1:45 pm

jaydam wrote:Let me try going about this a different way:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:I do believe a person can only be saved in Jesus and not by the Law.
So why would you "do" the Law then?
Do you mean why would I obey God by obeying God's commands found in the Law?
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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jaydam
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Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by jaydam » Fri May 06, 2016 1:49 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:
jaydam wrote:Let me try going about this a different way:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:I do believe a person can only be saved in Jesus and not by the Law.
So why would you "do" the Law then?
Do you mean why would I obey God by obeying God's commands found in the Law?
Sure. What do you believe would happen if you did not obey the commands of God found in the Torah/Mosaic Law?

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Fri May 06, 2016 1:52 pm

jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:
jaydam wrote:Let me try going about this a different way:

So why would you "do" the Law then?
Do you mean why would I obey God by obeying God's commands found in the Law?
Sure. What do you believe would happen if you did not obey the commands of God found in the Torah/Mosaic Law?
I'm not sure, but the only other things that enter my mind are obeying God's commands found in the New Testament. This would be Jesus' commands and more, and I believe Jesus observed and taught the Law. Some say Gentiles do not need to obey Jesus' commands. Obedience or works are not required for salvation, but repentance and faith is. And obedience and good works are the result of faith in a life surrendered to God.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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jaydam
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Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by jaydam » Fri May 06, 2016 2:03 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:
jaydam wrote:
Sure. What do you believe would happen if you did not obey the commands of God found in the Torah/Mosaic Law?
I'm not sure, but the only other things that enter my mind are obeying God's commands found in the New Testament. This would be Jesus' commands and more, and I believe Jesus observed and taught the Law. Some say Gentiles do not need to obey Jesus' commands. Obedience or works are not required for salvation, but repentance and faith is. And obedience and good works are the result of faith in a life surrendered to God.
Where do you get the bold phrase from in scripture?

IF you truly believe salvation comes only through Christ - I quote you: "I do believe a person can only be saved in Jesus and not by the Law." - then the words of your savior are to "obey everything I have commanded you." Mt 28:20

The one who brought salvation and the new covenant did not say, "obey everything I have commanded you and more." So where do you find that you get to add those two words to scripture?

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Fri May 06, 2016 2:12 pm

jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:
jaydam wrote:
Sure. What do you believe would happen if you did not obey the commands of God found in the Torah/Mosaic Law?
I'm not sure, but the only other things that enter my mind are obeying God's commands found in the New Testament. This would be Jesus' commands and more, and I believe Jesus observed and taught the Law. Some say Gentiles do not need to obey Jesus' commands. Obedience or works are not required for salvation, but repentance and faith is. And obedience and good works are the result of faith in a life surrendered to God.
Where do you get the bold phrase from in scripture?

IF you truly believe salvation comes only through Christ - I quote you: "I do believe a person can only be saved in Jesus and not by the Law." - then the words of your savior are to "obey everything I have commanded you." Mt 28:20

The one who brought salvation and the new covenant did not say, "obey everything I have commanded you and more." So where do you find that you get to add those two words to scripture?
I am only talking about the more commands in the New Testament, after Jesus.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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jaydam
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Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by jaydam » Fri May 06, 2016 2:21 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:I am only talking about the more commands in the New Testament, after Jesus.
Ok, so the things we are to obey - according to you - are what Christ said to do, and subsequent commands found in the NT. We can leave it at that for now.

So how do you get backwards to the Mosaic Law?

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Fri May 06, 2016 2:22 pm

jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:I am only talking about the more commands in the New Testament, after Jesus.
Ok, so the things we are to obey - according to you - are what Christ said to do, and subsequent commands found in the NT. We can leave it at that for now.

So how do you get backwards to the Mosaic Law?
By that the Law was not abolished by Jesus.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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jaydam
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Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by jaydam » Fri May 06, 2016 2:24 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:
jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:I am only talking about the more commands in the New Testament, after Jesus.
Ok, so the things we are to obey - according to you - are what Christ said to do, and subsequent commands found in the NT. We can leave it at that for now.

So how do you get backwards to the Mosaic Law?
By that the Law was not abolished by Jesus.
So we have more to obey than just what you referenced earlier as the commands of Jesus and subsequent commands in the NT?

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