The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu May 05, 2016 5:25 pm

I would like to know about the death penalty or capital punishment from Torah law and the Civil Law of Israel associated with it, which is God’s Law, and whether or not the death penalty exists for the new covenant believer in Jesus as the Christ or Yeshua as the Messiah whether Israel or the Gentiles, Jews or Greeks according to the gospel either in the church or in the context of society and even for the non-believer since the new covenant came to be.

http://www.thenarrowpath.com/archive/TNP160505H.mp3
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
jaydam
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by jaydam » Thu May 05, 2016 5:52 pm

God's people are no longer ruled by a civil law, so therefore the civil death penalty is not imposed through the body of Christ. E.g. Imposed by leaders within the church, tracing back to the apostles through to current elders. In other words, the church does not take out an adulterer in the congregation and stone them.

Thus, does the death penalty "exist for the new covenant believer?" It depends on the civil jurisdiction the believer lives within, not the church they are within because the universal church does not impose a civil death penalty.

Depending on the area, a civil death penalty may exist for some believers because of their faith, or a civil death penalty may exist for actions a believer would consider immoral.

In other words, the death penalty exists for the believer in as much as the civil jurisdiction they live within has one.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2659
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by Homer » Thu May 05, 2016 6:02 pm

Jacob,

I am puzzled by your question. Most, if not all Christians are governed by secular governments or non-Christian government. We are part of a kingdom "not of this world", and what we believe should be done to a convicted murderer is irrelevant to our government, the same as our beliefs about abortion. Are you asking whether we should advocate for or against the death penalty?

I believe the OT law, or Law of Moses has been done away. We are members of a new covenant, under a new "constitution". Many of the laws under this new covenant may be the same as those under the old law, but that does not mean we are under the old covenant any more than an immigrant from another country who arrives in the United States is under the laws of his former country when he discovers murder is a capital crime in his new home, just as it was in his former country.

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu May 05, 2016 6:05 pm

jaydam wrote:God's people are no longer ruled by a civil law, so therefore the civil death penalty is not imposed through the body of Christ. E.g. Imposed by leaders within the church, tracing back to the apostles through to current elders. In other words, the church does not take out an adulterer in the congregation and stone them.

Thus, does the death penalty "exist for the new covenant believer?" It depends on the civil jurisdiction the believer lives within, not the church they are within because the universal church does not impose a civil death penalty.

Depending on the area, a civil death penalty may exist for some believers because of their faith, or a civil death penalty may exist for actions a believer would consider immoral.

In other words, the death penalty exists for the believer in as much as the civil jurisdiction they live within has one.
It is believers who believe the Bible and obey God's Law. I don't think believers should be put to death by non-believers if only for the reason that they are believers or have faith in God (and therefore if a believer has sinned and they believe in God's Law they should be punished by it, rather than the death penalty applying for all people). We are all deserving of death. Steve Gregg spoke about church discipline I believe, and also (my words in translating what he said or putting it in to words without remembering the exact wording) that the reason the church doesn't punish people is that Jesus never put anyone to death or spoke of putting anyone to death to put it more exactly (I think it is this that he said). So, murderers don't belong in the church and must be punished by the nations or states that support the death penalty. But since we are all sinners, it is possible to repent and be cleansed of sin. How do you believe this works with those who have murdered and yet claim to be a part of the church, want to be a part of the church, or believe they are a part of the church whether they are or not I wouldn't universally or exceptionally know. Can murderers come to Christ and become a part of the church? If a person is in the church and murders someone should they be kicked out of the church for sin? If the nations are by their laws to try those who might be murderers, and the church doesn't, what does the church do? Do you believe in the death penalty in regard to the laws of nations, originating in God's Law or Torah law and the law of the nation of Israel?
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
jaydam
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: Portland, OR

The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by jaydam » Thu May 05, 2016 6:23 pm

Many times your posts lose me, but I will try to parcel this one and offer a response. I'll just go through your quote and offer my responses inline with colored text.
JacobMartinMertens wrote:It is believers who believe the Bible and obey God's Law. I don't think believers should be put to death by non-believers if only for the reason that they are believers or have faith in God

Tell that to Christians who ARE put to death legally for their faith.

(and therefore if a believer has sinned and they believe in God's Law they should be punished by it, rather than the death penalty applying for all people).

This lost me...

We are all deserving of death.

I understand the sentiment, but I disagree with it. I am justified, therefore I do not deserve death AND will not get death.

Consider if I forgive someone their debt. If it is cleared, I don't get to still walk around and tell them, you still deserve to pay me. You don't hang something over a person that has supposedly been resolved because then it is not truly resolved.


Steve Gregg spoke about church discipline I believe, and also (my words in translating what he said or putting it in to words without remembering the exact wording) that the reason the church doesn't punish people is that Jesus never put anyone to death or spoke of putting anyone to death to put it more exactly (I think it is this that he said). So, murderers don't belong in the church and must be punished by the nations or states that support the death penalty.

I would agree with Steve then. The church deals with keeping the body of Christ righteous (unpolluted), and the civil arena the murderer - in this case - finds themselves in deals with the civil punishment.

But since we are all sinners, it is possible to repent and be cleansed of sin. How do you believe this works with those who have murdered and yet claim to be a part of the church, want to be a part of the church, or believe they are a part of the church whether they are or not I wouldn't universally or exceptionally know. Can murderers come to Christ and become a part of the church?

Any sinner can come to Christ and become his disciple - murders, homosexuals, etc. - to be found within the body of Christ, the church. Repenting of sin can join one to the church, but does not facilitate getting off on the civil side of things. Again, independent spheres.

Therefore, a murderer can repent and be found within the church, yet still executed by the state for his crime. Notice, he is being executed for his crime (civil) even though his sin (spiritual) has been forgiven.


If a person is in the church and murders someone should they be kicked out of the church for sin?

Hypotheticals are hard to deal with. How about this, repentant sinners stay in the church those who don't walk in that direction go outside the church.

If the nations are by their laws to try those who might be murderers, and the church doesn't, what does the church do?

This lost me again...

Do you believe in the death penalty in regard to the laws of nations, originating in God's Law or Torah law and the law of the nation of Israel?

Do I think nations are required to have the death penalty because God commanded those who follow him to perform it? No. Secular, civil nations operate as exactly that, secular institutions with civil authority. They are not covenanted like the nation of Israel to impose God's law civilly.
Last edited by jaydam on Thu May 05, 2016 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu May 05, 2016 7:00 pm

Homer wrote:Jacob,

I am puzzled by your question. Most, if not all Christians are governed by secular governments or non-Christian government. We are part of a kingdom "not of this world", and what we believe should be done to a convicted murderer is irrelevant to our government, the same as our beliefs about abortion. Are you asking whether we should advocate for or against the death penalty?

I believe the OT law, or Law of Moses has been done away. We are members of a new covenant, under a new "constitution". Many of the laws under this new covenant may be the same as those under the old law, but that does not mean we are under the old covenant any more than an immigrant from another country who arrives in the United States is under the laws of his former country when he discovers murder is a capital crime in his new home, just as it was in his former country.
Do you understand that Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill?
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu May 05, 2016 7:09 pm

jaydam wrote:Many times your posts lose me, but I will try to parcel this one and offer a response. I'll just go through your quote and offer my responses inline with colored text.
JacobMartinMertens wrote:It is believers who believe the Bible and obey God's Law. I don't think believers should be put to death by non-believers if only for the reason that they are believers or have faith in God

Tell that to Christians who ARE put to death legally for their faith.

(and therefore if a believer has sinned and they believe in God's Law they should be punished by it, rather than the death penalty applying for all people).

This lost me...

We are all deserving of death.

I understand the sentiment, but I disagree with it. I am justified, therefore I do not deserve death AND will not get death.

Consider if I forgive someone their debt. If it is cleared, I don't get to still walk around and tell them, you still deserve to pay me. You don't hang something over a person that has supposedly been resolved because then it is not truly resolved.


Steve Gregg spoke about church discipline I believe, and also (my words in translating what he said or putting it in to words without remembering the exact wording) that the reason the church doesn't punish people is that Jesus never put anyone to death or spoke of putting anyone to death to put it more exactly (I think it is this that he said). So, murderers don't belong in the church and must be punished by the nations or states that support the death penalty.

I would agree with Steve then. The church deals with keeping the body of Christ righteous (unpolluted), and the civil arena the murderer - in this case - finds themselves in deals with the civil punishment.

But since we are all sinners, it is possible to repent and be cleansed of sin. How do you believe this works with those who have murdered and yet claim to be a part of the church, want to be a part of the church, or believe they are a part of the church whether they are or not I wouldn't universally or exceptionally know. Can murderers come to Christ and become a part of the church?

Any sinner can come to Christ and become his disciple - murders, homosexuals, etc. - to be found within the body of Christ, the church. Repenting of sin can join one to the church, but does not facilitate getting off on the civil side of things. Again, independent spheres.

Therefore, a murderer can repent and be found within the church, yet still executed by the state for his crime. Notice, he is being executed for his crime (civil) even though his sin (spiritual) has been forgiven.


If a person is in the church and murders someone should they be kicked out of the church for sin?

Hypotheticals are hard to deal with. How about this, repentant sinners stay in the church those who don't walk in that direction go outside the church.

If the nations are by their laws to try those who might be murderers, and the church doesn't, what does the church do?

This lost me again...

Do you believe in the death penalty in regard to the laws of nations, originating in God's Law or Torah law and the law of the nation of Israel?

Do I think nations are required to have the death penalty because God commanded those who follow him to perform it? No. Secular, civil nations operate as exactly that, secular institutions with civil authority. They are not covenanted like the nation of Israel to impose God's law civilly.
I understand some Christians are put to death for their faith. I am saying that if a person requires someone else to die for believing in the death penalty, while they themselves do not or that they do not believe in God, they are not standing for God or for God's Law they are actually fighting against it, violating it whether they believe Christians should not judge or they are hypocrites or not.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu May 05, 2016 7:26 pm

jaydam wrote:Many times your posts lose me, but I will try to parcel this one and offer a response. I'll just go through your quote and offer my responses inline with colored text.
JacobMartinMertens wrote:It is believers who believe the Bible and obey God's Law. I don't think believers should be put to death by non-believers if only for the reason that they are believers or have faith in God

Tell that to Christians who ARE put to death legally for their faith.

(and therefore if a believer has sinned and they believe in God's Law they should be punished by it, rather than the death penalty applying for all people).

This lost me...

We are all deserving of death.

I understand the sentiment, but I disagree with it. I am justified, therefore I do not deserve death AND will not get death.

Consider if I forgive someone their debt. If it is cleared, I don't get to still walk around and tell them, you still deserve to pay me. You don't hang something over a person that has supposedly been resolved because then it is not truly resolved.


Steve Gregg spoke about church discipline I believe, and also (my words in translating what he said or putting it in to words without remembering the exact wording) that the reason the church doesn't punish people is that Jesus never put anyone to death or spoke of putting anyone to death to put it more exactly (I think it is this that he said). So, murderers don't belong in the church and must be punished by the nations or states that support the death penalty.

I would agree with Steve then. The church deals with keeping the body of Christ righteous (unpolluted), and the civil arena the murderer - in this case - finds themselves in deals with the civil punishment.

But since we are all sinners, it is possible to repent and be cleansed of sin. How do you believe this works with those who have murdered and yet claim to be a part of the church, want to be a part of the church, or believe they are a part of the church whether they are or not I wouldn't universally or exceptionally know. Can murderers come to Christ and become a part of the church?

Any sinner can come to Christ and become his disciple - murders, homosexuals, etc. - to be found within the body of Christ, the church. Repenting of sin can join one to the church, but does not facilitate getting off on the civil side of things. Again, independent spheres.

Therefore, a murderer can repent and be found within the church, yet still executed by the state for his crime. Notice, he is being executed for his crime (civil) even though his sin (spiritual) has been forgiven.


If a person is in the church and murders someone should they be kicked out of the church for sin?

Hypotheticals are hard to deal with. How about this, repentant sinners stay in the church those who don't walk in that direction go outside the church.

If the nations are by their laws to try those who might be murderers, and the church doesn't, what does the church do?

This lost me again...

Do you believe in the death penalty in regard to the laws of nations, originating in God's Law or Torah law and the law of the nation of Israel?

Do I think nations are required to have the death penalty because God commanded those who follow him to perform it? No. Secular, civil nations operate as exactly that, secular institutions with civil authority. They are not covenanted like the nation of Israel to impose God's law civilly.
If a person can only be held to the standard of the law if they say they observe it, whether this is because this means you know what the law is or not, is it those who do not claim to observe the law who are putting to death those who do? To endeavor to observe the law or to try to obey is better than accusing someone on account of their being religious or a Christian, Judaism, the laws of nations, or even not.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu May 05, 2016 7:33 pm

Some people laugh at or put down those who observe or attempt to observe the law, whether these are saying they do or not. Are those who observe the law but don't say they do exceptional or doing anything to stand up for righteousness? Do I have a gift if I can talk about the law, rather than it being a curse?
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
jaydam
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: The death penalty, society, and the new covenant.

Post by jaydam » Thu May 05, 2016 10:01 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote: I understand some Christians are put to death for their faith. I am saying that if a person requires someone else to die for believing in the death penalty, while they themselves do not or that they do not believe in God, they are not standing for God or for God's Law they are actually fighting against it, violating it whether they believe Christians should not judge or they are hypocrites or not.

I don't understand the entire comment, and especially the underlined portion. When did we talk about killing someone for believing in the death penalty while not believing in God?

My point is that God's people used to be called as a nation to operate as a unified priestly and political entity. In the OT, God's people had an exclusive civil authority as an exclusive nation which they no longer have. NOW, God's people are among the nations, no longer to be a self-ruled, physical nation. Thus, there is no longer a civil authority working in direct covenantal submission to God. So you will not find ANY civil government wielding the Mosaic Law because there is no longer such a covenanted civil government.

Christians find themselves a spiritual nation, spread out among many civil nations, some of which use their civil laws in the manner a Christian would approve of, and some of which use their civil laws against Christians and their beliefs.

If a person can only be held to the standard of the law if they say they observe it, whether this is because this means you know what the law is or not, is it those who do not claim to observe the law who are putting to death those who do? To endeavor to observe the law or to try to obey is better than accusing someone on account of their being religious or a Christian, Judaism, the laws of nations, or even not.

No idea what point you are responding to here or what you mean.

Some people laugh at or put down those who observe or attempt to observe the law, whether these are saying they do or not. Are those who observe the law but don't say they do exceptional or doing anything to stand up for righteousness? Do I have a gift if I can talk about the law, rather than it being a curse?

I'm confused with this one as well. I'm assuming by law you mean the Mosaic Law. Paul does mention that those who retain some sort of Mosaic Law idea of holy days or uncleanliness are of weaker faith, if that is what you mean. But those of weaker faith should not be put down or laughed at.

As for if you have a gift to talk about the Mosaic Law, I don't see how it is a gift or a curse to be able to talk about a topic. That question also confuses me.

"[Does the the Mosaic Law] death penalty exists for the new covenant believer?"

Returning to your original question, I have hopefully clarified it and still done justice to your intent.

The answer is no because the new covenant believer is not under Mosaic civil authority in the body of Christ.

To rephrase what I said at the beginning of this post:

The Mosaic civil authority was established through God's covenant with an exclusive, physical, civic nation of his people - a nation which no longer exists.

God's people as Christians now submit to the civil laws under which they find themselves in various nations. Thus, the death penalty that now exists for the "new covenant believer" is not the Mosaic one, but whichever, if any, they find themselves under depending upon the nation/state they live in - the death penalty each Christian finds themselves under might work with the Christian's beliefs or in opposition to them.

Post Reply

Return to “General Questions”