dizerner wrote:JacobMartinMertens wrote:I am of the opinion that it is wrong to tell anyone they need to have faith but they are not to obey God. I don't believe you are doing that. Paul spoke of obedience in word and deed. That is more than just faith or belief.
Nobody needs to tell a new convert to love Jesus, they've been born again. Trust the life of Jesus in people Jacob, and don't try to force that life to happen by putting people under a heavy burden of commands. What people need is you to have faith for them and faith that God's grace is that awesome to give them strength and desire. People need grace they don't need more rules. Pray about it brother. I can get heavy on a person when they either 1. reject grace altogether or 2. have grace but don't allow it to work in them. But don't assume people are like that. If God needs someone to speak hard words, first he needs that someone to be spiritually mature and disciplined. to be functioning in a high level of grace. Grace is what people need Jacob. Grace is what you need. Grace is what I need. Grace is what Paul needed. Let's pray for grace.
Of course, but I have been saved by God's grace already.
Is obedience what we need or what God requires?
No one is saved by works or obedience. No deeds of righteousness for salvation (Titus 3:5).
So regardless of what a person thinks God requires how do the scriptures read? It's not about what we think God requires, it is about if God asks any more of us than faith.
In Romans I can show the obedience that is by faith or the obedience of faith. So, for those who say no obedience just faith because obedience is works, they are wrong. But now can I show that this is just a starting point for some and that God wants us to be obedient in word and deed, not just faith or belief? Of course I believe that we obey in faith. Hebrews 11:6. Salvation is not about what we do but about what God did in Jesus Christ for us. But individuals are saved after what Christ accomplished for us. That is, it is actually individuals that are saved. Not everyone. And saved by God.
So, is it then natural to believe or think that those weak in faith believe we are only to have faith as our obedience, while those more mature recognize obedience in word and deed in the life of the Christian?
If we can't tell the Christian to love Jesus, can we tell the non-Christian to love Jesus?
If it is by the Law that a person recognizes they are a sinner, is the Law only for unbelievers and not for believers?
What about the commands of Jesus? Some only accept the commands of Paul. Well, there is more than faith "as a command from Paul". The obedience in word and deed are likely because of the love of God, an outcome or outworking of salvation and the faith a person has.
I believe I am saved. I also believe I am to obey God and Jesus. If the subject is obedience, is the delivery of the message the problem? If I am asked should I obey God and Jesus I must say yes. Would I say the same of the unbeliever?
Instead of presenting the Law as the standard, since we say we are not under the Law, should we present Jesus' commands? It is somehow that the unconverted man comes to know his sin and the penalty or wages for his sin. So, in these things, we do have that Paul wrote 1 Timothy 1:5, 8-11. So there is a goal... love. And the law is about love. But it is the sinner who needs to know he has not loved. And Jesus or the words of Jesus will help him to understand where he stands, or where he is at, before God.
1 Timothy 1:5, 8-11 NASB - 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. ... 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.