Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God.

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God.

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:25 pm

When we are witnessing does it make sense to speak about obedience to God? This was said by Paul about (what God had done in Christ through him among) the Gentiles.

Romans 15:18 NASB - 18 For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed,
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:37 pm

No one is saved by works. Then it must be that the fruit of salvation was obedience to God. Or that God is pleased when we obey Him.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
dizerner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God

Post by dizerner » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:53 pm

The obedience of faith, trusting Christ to be everything you need.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:57 pm

dizerner wrote:The obedience of faith, trusting Christ to be everything you need.
We are to have faith, but that is not all. No one is saved by works. We are justified by faith. For by grace you have been saved through faith. Not works. But obedience makes sense. Does it make sense in witnessing or evangelism, or only when we are at church? There is much more about God that can be learned than what we do or what we are to do. But if we do not obey God's commands do we belong to Him? If not, then why not shape up and accept God's commands so that others would accept them by our example, even if we don't say anything about God's commands to anyone else (but, should we?).
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
dizerner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God

Post by dizerner » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:30 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:
dizerner wrote:The obedience of faith, trusting Christ to be everything you need.
We are to have faith, but that is not all. No one is saved by works. We are justified by faith. For by grace you have been saved through faith. Not works. But obedience makes sense. Does it make sense in witnessing or evangelism, or only when we are at church? There is much more about God that can be learned than what we do or what we are to do. But if we do not obey God's commands do we belong to Him? If not, then why not shape up and accept God's commands so that others would accept them by our example, even if we don't say anything about God's commands to anyone else (but, should we?).
Nobody saved but by grace, Nobody. Study up what Paul says on the Law. We will by grace naturally start reading God's Word and witnessing but God forbid we demand it with law and beat the sheep, instead of leading the sheep.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:32 pm

dizerner wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:
dizerner wrote:The obedience of faith, trusting Christ to be everything you need.
We are to have faith, but that is not all. No one is saved by works. We are justified by faith. For by grace you have been saved through faith. Not works. But obedience makes sense. Does it make sense in witnessing or evangelism, or only when we are at church? There is much more about God that can be learned than what we do or what we are to do. But if we do not obey God's commands do we belong to Him? If not, then why not shape up and accept God's commands so that others would accept them by our example, even if we don't say anything about God's commands to anyone else (but, should we?).
Nobody saved but by grace, Nobody. Study up what Paul says on the Law. We will by grace naturally start reading God's Word and witnessing but God forbid we demand it with law and beat the sheep, instead of leading the sheep.
I am of the opinion that it is wrong to tell anyone they need to have faith but they are not to obey God. I don't believe you are doing that. Paul spoke of obedience in word and deed. That is more than just faith or belief.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
dizerner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God

Post by dizerner » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:45 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:I am of the opinion that it is wrong to tell anyone they need to have faith but they are not to obey God. I don't believe you are doing that. Paul spoke of obedience in word and deed. That is more than just faith or belief.
Nobody needs to tell a new convert to love Jesus, they've been born again. Trust the life of Jesus in people Jacob, and don't try to force that life to happen by putting people under a heavy burden of commands. What people need is you to have faith for them and faith that God's grace is that awesome to give them strength and desire. People need grace they don't need more rules. Pray about it brother. I can get heavy on a person when they either 1. reject grace altogether or 2. have grace but don't allow it to work in them. But don't assume people are like that. If God needs someone to speak hard words, first he needs that someone to be spiritually mature and disciplined. to be functioning in a high level of grace. Grace is what people need Jacob. Grace is what you need. Grace is what I need. Grace is what Paul needed. Let's pray for grace.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:07 pm

dizerner wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:I am of the opinion that it is wrong to tell anyone they need to have faith but they are not to obey God. I don't believe you are doing that. Paul spoke of obedience in word and deed. That is more than just faith or belief.
Nobody needs to tell a new convert to love Jesus, they've been born again. Trust the life of Jesus in people Jacob, and don't try to force that life to happen by putting people under a heavy burden of commands. What people need is you to have faith for them and faith that God's grace is that awesome to give them strength and desire. People need grace they don't need more rules. Pray about it brother. I can get heavy on a person when they either 1. reject grace altogether or 2. have grace but don't allow it to work in them. But don't assume people are like that. If God needs someone to speak hard words, first he needs that someone to be spiritually mature and disciplined. to be functioning in a high level of grace. Grace is what people need Jacob. Grace is what you need. Grace is what I need. Grace is what Paul needed. Let's pray for grace.
Of course, but I have been saved by God's grace already.

Is obedience what we need or what God requires?

No one is saved by works or obedience. No deeds of righteousness for salvation (Titus 3:5).

So regardless of what a person thinks God requires how do the scriptures read? It's not about what we think God requires, it is about if God asks any more of us than faith.

In Romans I can show the obedience that is by faith or the obedience of faith. So, for those who say no obedience just faith because obedience is works, they are wrong. But now can I show that this is just a starting point for some and that God wants us to be obedient in word and deed, not just faith or belief? Of course I believe that we obey in faith. Hebrews 11:6. Salvation is not about what we do but about what God did in Jesus Christ for us. But individuals are saved after what Christ accomplished for us. That is, it is actually individuals that are saved. Not everyone. And saved by God.

So, is it then natural to believe or think that those weak in faith believe we are only to have faith as our obedience, while those more mature recognize obedience in word and deed in the life of the Christian?

If we can't tell the Christian to love Jesus, can we tell the non-Christian to love Jesus?

If it is by the Law that a person recognizes they are a sinner, is the Law only for unbelievers and not for believers?

What about the commands of Jesus? Some only accept the commands of Paul. Well, there is more than faith "as a command from Paul". The obedience in word and deed are likely because of the love of God, an outcome or outworking of salvation and the faith a person has.

I believe I am saved. I also believe I am to obey God and Jesus. If the subject is obedience, is the delivery of the message the problem? If I am asked should I obey God and Jesus I must say yes. Would I say the same of the unbeliever?

Instead of presenting the Law as the standard, since we say we are not under the Law, should we present Jesus' commands? It is somehow that the unconverted man comes to know his sin and the penalty or wages for his sin. So, in these things, we do have that Paul wrote 1 Timothy 1:5, 8-11. So there is a goal... love. And the law is about love. But it is the sinner who needs to know he has not loved. And Jesus or the words of Jesus will help him to understand where he stands, or where he is at, before God.

1 Timothy 1:5, 8-11 NASB - 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. ... 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 4978
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God

Post by Paidion » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:00 pm

Examining enough of the passage to see its significance:
For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ; and thus I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else’s foundation, but as it is written, “Those who have never been told of him will see, and those who have never heard will understand.” (Romans 15:18-21 ESV)
Paul clearly indicates that he has fulfilled the gospel of Christ by bringing the Gentiles to obedience. That is normal, for it is the very purpose of Christ's death and the gospel to bring people away from their old way of conducting their lives into the new and living way, and to provide the enabling grace to do so. Here is what Paul wrote to Titus about that enabling grace and the purpose of Christ's sacrifice:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15

This passage tells us that the very reason for Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was to “redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works.” Other passages which give us the same reason for Christ's death are as follows:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Of course, as soon as we mention that Jesus died to deliver us from our own evil way of life to a life of righteousness and obedience, there are those who will accuse us of trying to get right with God by our works or self-effort. Personally, I don't know of anyone who thinks they can get right with God by self-effort.

The angel announced to Joseph that he should call Mary's baby "Jesus" (Saviour) because He would save His people from their sins! Not merely from hell only, but from their SINS. The false gospel is that Jesus died merely to save us from hell. That he took our punishment upon Himself so that we wouldn't have to be punished for our sins, and that this satisfied the justice of God. Hmmm... a strange kind of justice! If you found that you son stole a lot of money from a neighbour, would you feel satisfied that justice had been done if his innocent brother were punished for the crime?
As George MacDonald wrote:The Lord never came to deliver men from the consequences of their sins while those sins remained. That would be to throw the medicine out the window while the man still lies sick! That would be to come directly against the very laws of existence! Yet men, loving their sins, and feeling nothing of their dread hatefulness, have (consistently with their low condition) constantly taken this word concerning the Lord to mean that he came to save them from the punishment of their sins. This idea (this miserable fancy rather) has terribly corrupted the preaching of the gospel. The message of the good news has not been truly delivered.
By the way, faith is the means of appropriating the enabling grace of God.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

User avatar
dizerner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: Paul wrote this that Gentiles had come to believe in God

Post by dizerner » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:10 pm

Of course, but I have been saved by God's grace already.
Grace is not a ONE time thing, man. I really don't feel like you're listening to me or respecting what I'm saying.

The hymn doesn't go :

Thro' many dangers, toils, and snares,
I have already come;
'Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And now I don't need grace anymore.


Until you can tell me how the Law is a ministration of condemnation, sin and death, I don't think you should be preaching it to others.

God BLESS.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

Post Reply

Return to “General Questions”