Was Adam sinless before the Fall?

[darinhouston]

Carried over from topic on atonement


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[Singalphile]

What is it that you are calling "the Fall"? ... and what you mean by "sinless"?

As I understand it, your question is, "Was Adam without sin before he sinned?" So I guess you mean something a little different.

[darinhouston]

It's not my question. I think it's self evident and I only brought it up as a rhetorical question in another thread, buti guess it does require contextual understanding of the terms. If Jesus is the second Adam in the context of a suitable our perfect sacrifice, then I suppose the context would be the same; i.e. That Jesus and Adam were sinless in the same way by not having any sin in them.

Again, I find this self evident, though others have suggested that you can't be sinless without being God. But I believe the first Adam was sinless without being God.


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[robbyyoung]

Hi Darin,

IMO, The Scripture shows no evidence that Adam was a sinful creature before he disobeyed God. Therefore, up until that point, he was in perfect fellowship with God, both spiritually and physically without sin. Else that fellowship would have been broken and an earlier record and story would have taken precedence over The Garden.

God Bless.

[mattrose]

My view...

Adam was sinless at creation, but not mature. In the path of his life he succumbed to the pull of the world, the flesh, and the devil. The result of this was that his life ended in death.

Jesus was sinless at incarnation, but not mature. If the path of his life he overcame the pull of the world, the flesh, and the devil. The result of this was that his death ended in resurrection.

Adam (humanity) could have not sinned, in which case the incarnation would have still happened BUT there would have been no need for death/resurrection. But once Adam (humanity) did sin, it became necessary for God's incarnation to include death and resurrection so that Adam (humanity) might be brought into the trinitarian life. It has always been necessary for God to take on flesh in order to invite flesh into trinitarian love, but subsequent to sin entering the world it became necessary for God to take on flesh AND die in order to create a path (via resurrection) for flesh to enter into trinitarian life.

[jriccitelli]

Adam was sinless. Yes. But he did sin. Angels were perfect too, I suppose, but they do eventually sin, or are capable of sin.
Jesus never did sin, and I believe that He would not sin because Jesus is a perfect Spirit, and Spirit is ultimately what we truly are. We by contrast are completely of this earth and our spirit also is created and willing to sin. Our spirit is weak, His is not. He is from above:
'And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world' (John 8:23)
There is a difference between willing to sin, and not willing to sin.
There is a difference between obedience and able.
There is a difference between something able and something unable.

Without getting too far into 'was Jesus willing or capable of sin', which scripture does not define in detail, it would seem fair to say that 'although Jesus had flesh His Spirit was perfect' in that He did not have the 'will' to sin. Where as men like Adam, we have the nature and will to sin.

Adam did not sin before the fall (hence the fall) and all we know about Adam before the fall is that he had yet to sin. But from other texts we learn that man as a being is a sinner. A bad device or product can seem perfect until it fails under a test (a part seems good until it gives up).

That Jesus and Adam were sinless in the same way by not having any sin in them.

I would not therefore say Jesus and Adam were sinless in the same way...

[willowtree]

Hi Darin,

IMO, The Scripture shows no evidence that Adam was a sinful creature before he disobeyed God. Therefore, up until that point, he was in perfect fellowship with God, both spiritually and physically without sin. Else that fellowship would have been broken and an earlier record and story would have taken precedence over The Garden.

God Bless.

I agree.

I do have a question that has bothered me for a long time, which is indirectly related to this topic

Why do we call this event the "Fall"? A fall has a strong element of 'accidental' - no one deliberately and intentionally falls off a cliff. God spelled out for Adam in Gen 3:17 that this event was not accidental in any way and holds him accountable for his sin (read deliberate disobedience).

To me, the term is neither accurate nor biblical.

Graeme

[robbyyoung]

Why do we call this event the "Fall"? A fall has a strong element of 'accidental' - no one deliberately and intentionally falls off a cliff. God spelled out for Adam in Gen 3:17 that this event was not accidental in any way and holds him accountable for his sin (read deliberate disobedience).

To me, the term is neither accurate nor biblical.

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

An astute observation. Furthermore, God and Adam, more than likely, had many encounters and conversations. Unfortunately, we do not have the details of all that transpired, but it must have been awesome to walk and commune with God, face-to-face. It really hits home, as you said Graeme, 'deliberately sinned'.

God Bless.

[TheEditor]

But once Adam (humanity) did sin, it became necessary for God's incarnation to include death and resurrection so that Adam (humanity) might be brought into the trinitarian life. It has always been necessary for God to take on flesh in order to invite flesh into trinitarian love, but subsequent to sin entering the world it became necessary for God to take on flesh AND die in order to create a path (via resurrection) for flesh to enter into trinitarian life.

Hi Matt,

This sounds reminiscent of Herbert Armstrongs's view that "elohim" is a "family". Could you elaborate?


JR wrote:

Jesus never did sin, and I believe that He would not sin because Jesus is a perfect Spirit, and Spirit is ultimately what we truly are. We by contrast are completely of this earth and our spirit also is created and willing to sin.

What do you base this notion on?

Our spirit is weak, His is not. He is from above:
'And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world' (John 8:23)
There is a difference between willing to sin, and not willing to sin.
There is a difference between obedience and able.
There is a difference between something able and something unable.

Without getting too far into 'was Jesus willing or capable of sin', which scripture does not define in detail, it would seem fair to say that 'although Jesus had flesh His Spirit was perfect' in that He did not have the 'will' to sin. Where as men like Adam, we have the nature and will to sin.

Adam did not sin before the fall (hence the fall) and all we know about Adam before the fall is that he had yet to sin. But from other texts we learn that man as a being is a sinner. A bad device or product can seem perfect until it fails under a test (a part seems good until it gives up).

So then Jesus was not really tested in every way as we ourselves and cannot sympathize with our weaknesses? The only advantage Jesus had, in my opinion, over us as humans, besides possessing perfect flesh, is that he apparently remembered his existence with the Father prior to the incarnation, and could use that memory as a support in times of trial. However, Adam also walked with God in the breezy part of the day, and so Adam also enjoyed something that we today do not. I'm not sure what you base your thesis on? Jesus was "the Last Adam". It's fairly simple. This notion of Jesus perfect spirit overcoming sin comes from where exactly?

Regards, Brenden.

[steve7150]

Jesus said lusting after something is sinful and that's what Eve did before she even ate from the tree. Eve came out of Adam so they had the same DNA therefore Adam would have also lusted.

It stands to reason if they lusted after the tree they were not perfect in fact it's likely they lusted after other things.