Sun of Righteousness--Malachi 4:1, 2

[robbyyoung]

Hi Paidion, My response is in RED.

I know how full preterists think, and to me it's nonsense. LOL... your opinion isn't an exegetical refutation. You keep insisting that you're at odds with the FP, when it's the NT Writers you have a problem with. You see, I actually believe what they said concerning "The last Days" and so did the 1st Century Church. Therefore, I'm in good company. This is why I'm NOT bothered by this type of empty rhetoric from other Christians. I know the opposition's "tactics" - which is to discredit the FP, yet are to afraid to admit The NT Writers "Got it Wrong!" For they had to have gotten it wrong in order for "The Opposition" to refute what the FP affirms. Therefore, if you are not willing to admit "They Got it Wrong", what's with the slander towards those who believe what was written? So tell me Paidion, why am I, Yeshua, The Apostles, and 1st Century Church "Nonsensical" for believing what the Holy Spirit testified would happen in the 1st Century generation of believers? Please enlighten me on when The Holy Spirit gave the NT Writers an expectation of The Last Days to an audience divorced from the 1st Century?

Why would all prophecies be given only to the people of that age? Not given, fulfilled. And zilch for the people who lived in the following two millenia? Are the people of that age so much more important than the ones following? Now that's funny! Are the people two, three, or four millennia removed from the 1st Century Church much more important??? Talk about a nonsensical argument! The age or generation in which prophecy is fulfilled has nothing to do with one's worth! I mean, for goodness sake???

Do you really think Christ returned in 70 A.D., and the resurrection of the dead took place then? Yes. Why was no one aware of it? Your presupposition forces you to think the nature of these events would be witnessed in the seen and unseen realm in the same manner. Which is not the case. Who was caught up to meet the Lord in the air? The Church and The Dead Believers in sheol. Why did 2nd century Christians believe that the coming of antichrist, the coming of Christ, and the resurrection would take place subsequent to their time? Because The Church was GONE! The Age-During Gospel was preached and The End came. After 70AD there was silence for about 40 years! Sleepers began to emerge and try to make sense of what happened. All the 1st Century Believers were gone and therefore, no one came forth to set the record straight. What we have is copies of their written record. God has given us the historical account, what we needed. The Gospel message continues to penetrate the eons, but it had a consummated purpose to close a previous AGE. Were there ANY Christians who believed these events took place in 70 A.D. prior to the 17th century? This is irrelevant. The written account left for us says, THEY believed it! Who cares what anyone else says to discredit THEIR witness. But here's a good Preterist History walk through by Todd Dennis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WPzYFuE6wU. Oh, I know—some say that Eusebius taught it. But He didn't teach that Christ had already returned or that the resurrection had already taken place or that the rapture had already occurred. Again, Eusebius nor anyone else can trump/discredit the written account/witness.

You know Paidion, I can be dogmatic on these issues with the utmost confidence, you know why? Because the NT Writers were. It really is that simple for me. You try to discredit me for believing their inspired message concerning the timing of said events??? How am I, somehow, disingenuous in discussing these matters? I believe I asked you before to show me where does the NT Writers talk about another people, place and time regarding the fulfillment of the resurrection, judgment, rapture and second coming? I'm still waiting.

God Bless

[TheEditor]

After 70AD there was silence for about 40 years! Sleepers began to emerge and try to make sense of what happened. All the 1st Century Believers were gone and therefore, no one came forth to set the record straight

How then were there persecutions during that time and of whom if there were no more Christians? Further, how was a developed ecclesiology present by the time Ignatious was martyred in order for him to tell his readers to "submit to the local Bishop"? Any study of organizational dynamics tells us that it takes time to develop heirarchy. By the way, why did Polycarp miss the cosmic train? Wasn't he good enough? Or was there a kindly Roman couple that adopted him and trained him in Christianity, so he could retain his roots? Who is being a bit credulous here?

There is much to support a partial preterist view, but these full preterist points of perplexity are too much for me.

Regards, Brenden.

PS What does this have to do with Malachi?

[robbyyoung]

PS What does this have to do with Malachi?

Hi Brenden,

I guess nothing. So maybe you guys should stop asking me questions

God Bless.

[Paidion]

A full preterist position concerning the coming of Messiah compared to Jesus' own words as recorded in Matthew 24. (first the FP position, and then Jesus' predictions).

1. The Great Tribulation occurred for those in Jerusalem around 70 A.D. who were surrounded by Roman armies, isolated and starved. The suffering of those Jewish people is described in detail by Josephus.
Jesus said, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.(vs 21)"
Was the suffering of the Jewish people in Jerusalem around 70 A.D. the worst tribulation that ever occurred both before or after? Those who have read of the suffering of the Jews under Hitler in the extermination camps and have seen the photos of the emaciated people know that those sufferings were just as great, or surpassing, those of 70 A.D. Those who have read The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitzyn know that the suffering of millions of Russian people, during the years from 1917 until 1960 and perhaps beyond, imprisoned by those in power for no valid reason, and sentence from 10 to 50 years, tortured both physically and psychologically, underwent a tribulation which probably exceeded that of the Jews isolated in Jerusalem around 70 A.D.

2. No one was aware of Jesus coming in 70 A.D. except the Christians who were raptured away to heaven. No one noticed them gone, and so there was no historical record of the coming of Messiah.
Jesus said, "So, if they say to you, ‘lo, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; if they say, ‘lo, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lighting [not "lightning"] comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the son of man." (vs 26,27)
Jesus makes clear that it will not be a secret coming. When the sun rises in the east, and its lighting shines to the west; everyone is aware of it. So will it be at the return of Messiah. Everyone will be aware of his coming.

Similarly in Revelation 1:7
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all [Israeli] tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
Every eye will see Him—not just the eyes of the Christians. This includes all the Jewish people who will not have become disciples of the Messiah. They will not only see Him, but will wail because of Him.

[robbyyoung]

A full preterist position concerning the coming of Messiah compared to Jesus' own words as recorded in Matthew 24. (first the FP position, and then Jesus' predictions).

1. The Great Tribulation occurred for those in Jerusalem around 70 A.D. who were surrounded by Roman armies, isolated and starved. The suffering of those Jewish people is described in detail by Josephus.
Jesus said, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.(vs 21)"
Was the suffering of the Jewish people in Jerusalem around 70 A.D. the worst tribulation that ever occurred both before or after? Those who have read of the suffering of the Jews under Hitler in the extermination camps and have seen the photos of the emaciated people know that those sufferings were just as great, or surpassing, those of 70 A.D. Those who have read The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitzyn know that the suffering of millions of Russian people, during the years from 1917 until 1960 and perhaps beyond, imprisoned by those in power for no valid reason, and sentence from 10 to 50 years, tortured both physically and psychologically, underwent a tribulation which probably exceeded that of the Jews isolated in Jerusalem around 70 A.D.

2. No one was aware of Jesus coming in 70 A.D. except the Christians who were raptured away to heaven. No one noticed them gone, and so there was no historical record of the coming of Messiah.
Jesus said, "So, if they say to you, ‘lo, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; if they say, ‘lo, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lighting [not "lightning"] comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the son of man." (vs 26,27)
Jesus makes clear that it will not be a secret coming. When the sun rises in the east, and its lighting shines to the west; everyone is aware of it. So will it be at the return of Messiah. Everyone will be aware of his coming.

Similarly in Revelation 1:7
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all [Israeli] tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
Every eye will see Him—not just the eyes of the Christians. This includes all the Jewish people who will not have become disciples of the Messiah. They will not only see Him, but will wail because of Him.

Hi Paidion,

We are a distraction to the OP with this line of questioning. Therefore, I will not answer your post here, but under another oppropriate heading. Give me some time though, for there are many things I would like to address regarding your comments.

God Bless.