Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

dwilkins
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dwilkins » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:23 pm

TheEditor wrote:Hi Doug,

I think we may be moving goal posts here. Let's reconsider the original proposition as made by Robby:

When I accepted the Full Preterist paradigm, one of the first thoughts that came to mind was how this realization would have changed the course of history. Hitler's atrocities, The Inquisition, The establishment of a Jewish State by Zionist, etc.., and how about the agnostics and atheists, who sit on or off "The Bench" because of supposed "failed prophecies" regarding Yeshua's time statements concerning His return. How many of these people would have been converted if The Full Preterist Paradigm would've been taught?


My arguments were all predicated on that one assertion. I believe the nations walk as they walk apart from any real faith in God. They may think they have a faith. But the fact they control countries and continents and broker the destinies of societal groups, tells me that the profession is merely that.

The only immediate problem the full-blown end times "Jesus is coming for sure next year" mindset creates is for the posessor of that idea. Think of the Great Dissappointment in 1843/1844, or the mini-Great Dissappointment for JWs in 1975. Many of these people sold homes and property so they could spend the remaining months in this system preaching the imminent return. How exactly would these folks ever have a mind to get involved in politics in the first place?

Unfortunately, this is one of those subjects that my OCD driven disposition forced me to become far more literate in (Second Adventism) than your average bear. Coming out of the JWs I had to deconstruct and then reconstruct my (tentative) eschatological views, as well as understand the "how's" and "why;'s" of how they historically got there.

I don't think Hitler was preparing for Christ's return. Many Adventists are a-political. I can see the temptation for Amillenialists and Preterists to become very involved in society. This then brings up a different temptation that is a variant on the same theme: To what extent should Christians be engaged in the affairs of the world?

Regards, Brenden.
I think you are projecting your experience (that of a small minority of fringe people) into a topic about the way large numbers people, and the way the views of various influential people, affect history. I think you need to take a look at the history of Zionism and its relationship with Premillennial and Dispensational politicians, religious leaders, and missionary groups. That's only one area where I think that peoples' view of eschatology has affected major national and international decision making. But, it's a well documented one.

Doug

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robbyyoung
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:27 pm

TheEditor wrote:Hi Robby,

I must respectfully disagree. Views on the return of Christ are not part of the "Good News". In fact, Jesus was quite clear to his disciples, as you like to style it , then listening, that if anyone were to come and say "The time is at hand", they were to not go after such. Makes it pretty clear to me that this was not to be the focal point at all in the Gospel they were preaching.
Hey Brenden,

The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and The Gospel of The Kingdom is represented by the preaching and teaching of both Jesus and The Apostles. IT IS NOT a catch phrase but an entire message that consist of many letters to articulate. So yes, unfortunately we will have to disagree.

You are referring to Prophecy within the message Brenden. This was a sign in reference to false prophets giving premature declarations before the time. This knowledge would only be given to the Apostles. Furthermore, let me direct your attention to the first Gospel Message on Pentecost: Acts 2:20-21 "...THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME. AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED..."

So yeah, it's important.

I can definitely agree with your sentiments regarding the rest of your post, as it relates to the Gospel Message. But I think we are moving away from the intent of this post ;) .

God Bless.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:46 pm

TheEditor wrote:
how about the agnostics and atheists, who sit on or off "The Bench" because of supposed "failed prophecies" regarding Yeshua's time statements concerning His return
This was actually a problem in the first century as well, when the supposed "time statments" were acurately foretold:

"For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires  and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning." (2 Peter 3:3-4)

I guess some things never change.
What? Brenden what are you doing? How does this refute the time statements? They, the scoffers, were wrong! Peter had it right! The Lord did come, He destroyed THEM, along with the Old Covenant System. Please slow down and think about what you are posting :D .

God Bless.

steve7150
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by steve7150 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:25 pm

When I accepted the Full Preterist paradigm, one of the first thoughts that came to mind was how this realization would have changed the course of history. Hitler's atrocities, The Inquisition, The establishment of a Jewish State by Zionist, etc.., and how about the agnostics and atheists, who sit on or off "The Bench" because of supposed "failed prophecies" regarding Yeshua's time statements concerning His return. How many of these people would have been converted if The Full Preterist Paradigm would've been taught?






Hitler was a rabid racist and fervently believed in it. He didn't hate the Jews as well as dozens of other groups for any reasons that had anything connected with the bible other then perhaps Satan indwelled him. The inquisition had nothing to do with eschatology , it had to do with the fact that Spain at that time in history decided it wanted to be a purely Roman Catholic country. Jews establishing Israel in the late 1800s up through 1948 IMHO was based on several factors like nationalism and safety much more then a perceived biblical reason.
As far as atheists sitting on the bench because of unfilled prophecies? They would demand concrete proof of fulfilled prophecies and i'm afraid that spiritual fulfillments would not get them off the bench. So i don't think anything would be different had Full Preterism been mainstream Christianity.

dwilkins
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dwilkins » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:21 pm

steve7150 wrote: Hitler was a rabid racist and fervently believed in it. He didn't hate the Jews as well as dozens of other groups for any reasons that had anything connected with the bible other then perhaps Satan indwelled him. The inquisition had nothing to do with eschatology , it had to do with the fact that Spain at that time in history decided it wanted to be a purely Roman Catholic country. Jews establishing Israel in the late 1800s up through 1948 IMHO was based on several factors like nationalism and safety much more then a perceived biblical reason.
As far as atheists sitting on the bench because of unfilled prophecies? They would demand concrete proof of fulfilled prophecies and i'm afraid that spiritual fulfillments would not get them off the bench. So i don't think anything would be different had Full Preterism been mainstream Christianity.
You are flat wrong. It is widely understood by historians that the German people's generic dislike of Jews was heavily influence by Luther and the Lutheran church, which was the state church at the time. Read, "The Jews and Their Lies". In it, Luther documents how the Jews were rejected by God specifically because of the events of 70AD. Unfortunately, because he does not see that as the exhaustion of the punishment that was due the Jews according to the New Testament, Luther continues to be antagonistic to them. The Lutheran church continued this basic approach moving forward. Hitler did not implement a hidden, secret plan. He bragged about his plan at rallies and the Germans ate it up. Your understanding of the founding of the modern state of Israel is incorrect as well. Premillennialists (generally Dispensationalists) in the U.S. and British governments as well as missionaries espousing the same view were instrumental in the creation of Israel. That's bad eschatology creating bad policy. There are numerous books on Christian Zionism and the history of modern Israel, but I found "Faith, Power, and Fantasy" to be a decent introduction (though it's a bit biased towards the Zionist view.

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Faith-Fanta ... er+fantasy

Doug

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Michelle
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by Michelle » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:39 pm

steve7150 wrote: When I accepted the Full Preterist paradigm, one of the first thoughts that came to mind was how this realization would have changed the course of history. Hitler's atrocities, The Inquisition, The establishment of a Jewish State by Zionist, etc.., and how about the agnostics and atheists, who sit on or off "The Bench" because of supposed "failed prophecies" regarding Yeshua's time statements concerning His return. How many of these people would have been converted if The Full Preterist Paradigm would've been taught?






Hitler was a rabid racist and fervently believed in it. He didn't hate the Jews as well as dozens of other groups for any reasons that had anything connected with the bible other then perhaps Satan indwelled him. The inquisition had nothing to do with eschatology , it had to do with the fact that Spain at that time in history decided it wanted to be a purely Roman Catholic country. Jews establishing Israel in the late 1800s up through 1948 IMHO was based on several factors like nationalism and safety much more then a perceived biblical reason.
As far as atheists sitting on the bench because of unfilled prophecies? They would demand concrete proof of fulfilled prophecies and i'm afraid that spiritual fulfillments would not get them off the bench. So i don't think anything would be different had Full Preterism been mainstream Christianity.
Hi Steve,

I agree with you (which I realize makes me flat wrong in Doug's eyes.) Trying to imagine how history might have been different *if only...* is a fool's errand. It is also silly to lay complete blame (or credit) for complex events at the feet of those avowing a certain theological construct. But people do that all the time, so it's not surprising that Doug and Robby are passionate about what they see as tragedies brought about by grievous error. No wonder Full Preterists are so strident in trying to convince others that their understanding of TRUTH. They need to save the world from further misguided tragedies. They must, after all, since God is finished with us.

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TheEditor
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by TheEditor » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:52 pm

Sometimes when I read through posts, I can't help myself. I just think of this song. Kind of like when things are crazy around the house. :lol:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBzb7TJzE_Q
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dwilkins
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dwilkins » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:09 pm

I think it would be beneficial to people if they understood eschatology according to a strong preterist paradigm. At the very least, I'd like to see them dump Dispensationalism. But, that's not why I have kept going on this topic. The reason is the fascination I have with people who willingly set aside logic and common sense in order to keep from having to admit simple things like the fact that a person's worldview will influence what they do in life. I'm frankly shocked that anyone is arguing that. The only response to the OP that would make sense to me is one that argues that Full Preterism, because of some element of it, would result in a worse world than the one that the Dispensationalists (or Amillennialists, etc.) have brought us. Then, we could debate what part of which system would result in a better outcome. To argue that a person's or society's beliefs don't result in any particular outcome at all is laughable.

Doug

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TheEditor
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by TheEditor » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:30 pm

Doug,

Could you please point out to me where exactly I or anyone else in this thread stated that it was not true that "a person's worldview will influence what they do in life"??? I explicity stated the opposite! Please explain yourself? I think rereading the posts perhaps 12 times may help. I honestly don't see how you can maintain that this is my view of matters. I'm off to do something fun with the kids.

Regards, Brenden.

Enter the Gladiators.....
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steve
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by steve » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:43 pm

Wow! A lot has been written in this thread since I visited it (just yesterday)! It looks like the only posted questions directed at me by name are found in the post by Robby, a few pages back (posted today, 2:41 am). In that post, Robby said:
A tenet in that Gospel message was the promise of The Lord’s return. Yeshua and The Apostles constantly used this as a motivator to their audience to repent and stay the course.

2 Pet 3:1-4, 11-14
1 Thes 4:9-18
Matt 3:7, 10, 12
Matt 16:27
Matt 21:40-41, 43, 45
Rom 8:18
Rom 13:11-12

I could go on and on… So according to The Futurist, this message ISN’T really of primary importance to the Entirety of The Gospel Message? Really? Well Yeshua and The Apostles say’s otherwise.
I was agreeing with TheEditor in his statement that end-time views are ancillary to the gospel and one’s walk with God—and I still maintain that. None of the verses cited above identify elements of the Gospel preached by Christ to sinners, though I would not deny that the immanence of the destruction of Jerusalem was the subtext behind most of His preaching to the Jews. Of course, even if the impending destruction of AD70 had been foremost in every Gospel presentation of Christ to the Jews, it would hardly figure as a prominent feature of our preaching to the Gentiles post-AD70.

Likewise, the futurist expectation of the second coming, while perhaps inspiring hope and joy in the believer, is not a legitimate emphasis, in my opinion, in the evangelization of sinners, nor in the discipleship of believers. It is a part of the theological system that Christians have been taught, along with other doctrines, throughout history. This does not make it central to one’s “walk with God,” which should be the same regardless of expectations of a second coming of Christ.
Also, I don’t know why you guys keep making charges about Preterists being obsessed and disabusing other points of view. I could make the same claim against you.
I have never objected to full-preterists presenting or defending their views—here or anywhere else. I have observed, though, that the doctrine seems to be a hobbyhorse, given emphasis out of proportion to its practical value, by those who have embraced it. Doug, a full-preterist, has done a good job of spreading his interests out among various subjects addressed in the forum, but most full-prets that I know do seem obsessed with that one doctrine.

If you think that I am also obsessed with one particular doctrinal hobbyhorse, I would be willing to hear what you think it may be, and how you have arrived at this assessment of my ministry. Eschatology is one of my least-favorite theological topics, though I address myself to it when asked. I think you will find, throughout this forum, my interest in a wide-ranging variety of topics.

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