General questions for Steve

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General questions for Steve

Post by _Anonymous » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:36 am

Hi Steve,

I am new to this forum and somewhat new to your teaching ministries in general and I was hoping to ask your scriptural opinions on a couple of topics.

1. What is your opinion of the "barking and laughing" that is attributed to the Holy Spirit by some people? I must admit that I have a hard time reconciling it with any scriptures that I am aware of. I thought I heard you mention it in passing one time, either on the radio or on one of your teaching files. It seemed like you were undecided on whether it was scriptural or not. I have never experienced or witnessed this personally and have not attended many charismatic or pentecostal type meetings.

2. I have done some reading in the Calvinist/Arminianist part of this forum and have found some very interesting and thought provoking reading there. I was hoping to submit a small excerpt from a website that is really interesting and claims to be neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I wanted to get your opinion of the argument set forth there. I doubt if I could articulate the view well enough since I have not decided yet whether I think it is the best view. I do think that it has value as a view not yet considered in that forum. I read your post on cut and paste and I agree in principle. If I embraced the view myself or could relate it accurately, then I would try that there. I was planning on quoting the author as unnamed because I don't have an agenda or a desire for special recognition. I only want to accurately represent the view to obtain your opinion of its scriptural merits. With your permission I would ask for a ONE TIME exception to the rule, but I would understand if that would make you uncomfortable since it might tend to open the floodgates for others in the future.

I do have a sincere desire to learn and grow in Christ and am re-evaluating many old beliefs that I may have acquired by default without enough prayerful consideration.

Thanks,
Scott
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Post by _Steve » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:04 pm

Hi Scott,

I have seen no reason to attribute the barking or laughing phenomena, of which you inquired, to the working of the Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit could never inspire such behavior, but I can see no reason to attribute such to him in the context of the "laughing revival." The work of the Holy Spirit is to make us Holy, not silly. The behavior I have observed and heard reported in this movement could as easily be of human contrivance or of demonic origin as of the Holy Spirit. I am waiting to see evidence that would make me believe that it is not one of the first two.

You may post the article you mentioned, given the circumstances you described. I am not trying to outright forbid such postings--only to discourage the use of such things instead of dialog. If there is a good reason, in keeping with the nature of the forum, to post someone else's work, I do not object to it.

Blessings!
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Post by _Scott » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:37 am

Hi Steve,

Thanks for letting me post this view from an author who will remain unnamed. He claims to be neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I have edited it somewhat to try to make it shorter and yet retain the essence of the original points. Please let me know what your thoughts are. I am especially interested in concepts with more scripture attached than I found in this material. That is one of the reasons I appreciate your ministry. I can make the comparisons between divine thought and human reasoning and after doing the math, hopefully arrive at an equation.

Here it is...

"The Bible clearly asserts that the influence of God upon the unsaved must be exercised if ever they are to turn to Him in saving faith. Christ declared, "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him" (John 6:44). The will of man is a creation of God and in relation to it He sustains no timidity or uncertainty. He made man's will as an instrument by which He might accomplish His sovereign purpose and it is inconceivable that it should ever thwart His purpose.

When exercising his will, man is conscious only of his freedom of action. He determines his course by circumstances, but God is the author of circumstances. Man is impelled by emotions, but God is able to originate and control every human emotion. Man prides himself that he is governed by experienced judgment, but God is able to foster each and every thought or determination of the human mind. God will mold and direct in all secondary causes until His own eternal purpose is realized. How else could He fulfill His covenants which commit Him to the control of the actions and destinies of men to the end of time and into eternity? When predestinating, He assumes the responsibility of creating, calling, saving, and completing according to His own purpose.

The precise number that will be glorified will be the precise number and the same individuals--not more nor less--that he predestinated. Each one will have believed, have been saved, have been perfected and presented like Christ in glory. Men enter consciously into this great undertaking only at the point of believing, or responding to the call. Naturally, it seems to them that they, acting in freedom within the restricted sphere of their consciousness, determine everything. Their action is vital, for no link in God's chain can be lacking.

The point where misunderstanding arises is with reference to the fact that, so far as their cognizance serves them, they are certain that they act freely; yet every truly regenerated person will testify that he would not have turned to God apart from that all-important divine drawing of his heart. Divine election is absolute. If this seems to come to be taking things out of the hands of men and committing them into the hands of God, it will at least be conceded that, when thus committed to God, things are in better hands and this, after all, is God's own universe in which He has sovereign right to do after the dictates of His own blessed will.

The sphere of human action, so far as it can mean anything in the sphere of human consciousness, is left in perfect freedom of action. It should be deemed no crime on the part of God that He discloses to His own elect that His sovereign power and purpose are working through and over all human forces and secondary causes. It is certain that, in the vast range of creation, God has manifold purposes and there will be no question raised about whether His will is done in other spheres. It is only within the restricted realm of certain human beings that doubt is engendered relative to the sovereignty of God; and it is significant that such doubt springs from men and not from God.

His Word may be taken as the declaration of what He deems to be true, and He asserts His own sovereignty with no condition of qualification. After all, the opinions of men, who are steeped in self-exalting prejudice and afflicted with satanic independence of God, are of no value whatsoever. The entire theme of predestination is outside the human horizon. By specific steps and by wholly adequate means God realizes what He purposes. The divine call not only invites with a Gospel appeal, but inclines the mind and heart of the one called to accept divine grace. Here the human will--a secondary cause--is recognized. The will of man is guided by what he knows and what he desires.

The divine method of reaching the will is by increasing man's knowledge and by stimulating his desires, while on the divine side of this method there remains not a shadow of possible failure. The end is as certain as any eternal reality in God. On the human side, man is conscious of doing only what he actually does; he chooses in an act of his own volition to receive the grace God offers in Christ Jesus. It is a problem to the mind of man how God can predetermine and realize the eternal salvation of a precise number which no human being has ever counted, and guarantee that not one will fail, and yet each one of that incomprehensible company is allowed the free exercise of his own will, and could, if he so determined, reject every offer of divine grace.

By loving persuasion and gracious enlightenment God realizes His purpose to the point of infinite completeness; yet no human will has been coerced, nor will one ever be. From the standpoint of infinite holiness, it is no slight achievement for God to justify eternally an ungodly enemy who himself does no more than believe on Jesus, and to do this in such a manner as to shield the One who justified from every complication which mere leniency with sin and unworthiness would engender. This is not a human disagreement where one believer is charging another with evil; it is an issue of far greater proportions. It is God who is challenged to take account of the sin of His elect. Some contend that God must judge and condemn the one He has saved if there is ought to charge against him. Over against this notion is the clear assertion that God has already justified the one who has given full proof of his election by believing on Christ, and this in spite of not just one evil being charged against him, but in spite of every sin--past, present, and future.

No human will was ever created to defeat the will of God, but rather the human will is one of the instruments by which God realizes His purposes for humanity. The one who meditates on the Person of God, the eternity of God, the omnipotence of God, the sovereignty of God as Creator of, the Ruler over, all things, and the elective purpose of God, will be fortified against that form of rationalism--subtle in character and natural to the human heart--which imagines that, in his creation, God has unwittingly so tied His hands that He cannot with that absoluteness which belongs to infinity realize His eternal purpose.

Having designed that man shall be possessed of an independent will, no step can be taken in the accomplishment of God's sovereign purpose which will even tend to coerce the human volition. God does awaken the mind of man to spiritual sanity and bring before him the desirability of salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ. If by His power, God creates new visions of the reality of sin and of the blessedness of Christ as Saviour, and under this enlightenment men choose to be saved, their will is not coerced nor are they deprived of the action of any part of their own beings.

When God by His Spirit inclines one to Christ, that one, in so doing, acts only in the consciousness of his own choice. It is obvious that to present a convincing argument to a person which leads that one to make a decision, does not partake of the nature of a coercion of the will. In such a case, every function of the will is preserved and, in relation to the Gospel, it remains true that "whosoever will may come"; yet back of this truth is the deeper revelation that no fallen men will to accept Christ until enlightened [not regenerated] by the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-11).

If God fore-ordained certain actions, and placed man in such circumstances that the actions would certainly take place agreeably to the laws of the mind, men are nevertheless moral agents, because they act voluntarily, and are responsible for the actions which consent has made their own. Liberty does not consist in the power of acting or not acting, but in acting from choice. The choice is determined by something in the mind itself, or by something external influencing the mind; but, whatever is the cause, the choice makes the action free, and the agent is responsible."

One last thought about the author being neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I have often wondered while listening to these debates, just what percentage of parts in a car have to be made in America for the car to claim to be "made in America". Likewise, how many points of Calvinism does it take to be a Calvinist. 50%+1, 2/3 majority, or all or nothing? I guess it depends on who you ask. I know I'm not one even though I give God all the credit for my personal salvation. But I am also uncomfortable with what appears to be an overemphasis on works for salvation by some Arminians. I would love to see more works in the body, not to bring about our own justification or sanctification, but for proof of our personal relationship with Christ, shown to each other and the world through love.

Thanks again,
Scott
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Post by _Homer » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:11 am

Scott (or Steve),

Just curious, could you share with us who the author is?

How does God influence the mind? Is it not through His word? "The gospel is the power unto salvation." According to Romans 10:14-17 saving faith comes only through hearing the gospel. Do you believe the Holy spirit convicts without the gospel or is the spirit working on men's hearts to prepare them to hear?

Yours in Christ, Homer
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Post by _moe » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:32 pm

I don't mean to intrude on your conversation......

I want to for a moment make a personal comment;

Most of my friends know my PERSONAL testimony.....

I came from a liberal background and was hitchhiking one day
30 years ago. Briefly, I walked into a store and they were not busy.
I walked up to the counter and asked the man AND woman working,
"something is different about the two of you, what is it?" They gave me the gospel message and rest supernatural history!! I had never seen a bible and had been to the catholic church a handful of times...........

To GOD be the GLORY!
My life has been a series of miracles mainly that HE has kept me all these
years.

Moe
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Post by _Rae » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:26 pm

The article seems to be more of a philosophical article than a scriptural one. Even the full except from the "unnamed author's" systematic theology only sites five scriptures.
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Post by _Scott » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:40 am

Hi Homer,

I really would rather stay away from naming the author. I was hoping the opinions expressed would be judged solely on their scriptural merit. I have only read a limited number of the writings of this author and was struck by this because I had never heard this view before.

I do believe that God influences the mind through His Word. I am not sure that is the only way He influences the mind, however. It seems to me that there may be many ways that God influences our minds both before and after our spiritual birth. I think the scriptures are the primary and most important way God influences our minds, especially after salvation.

I also believe the Holy Spirit works on mens hearts to prepare them to hear. I'm not sure about the Spirit "convicting without the gospel" as you put it. If an unbeliever (with little or no knowledge of the Word) feels some "conviction" about sin and the need to find forgiveness or peace and that leads them ultimately to the gospel, then that might fit your description since they did not know the gospel truths at the time of conviction. Once they believe the gospel message by faith, it certainly is appropriated for what it is, the power of God unto salvation. Even if conviction is not the right word for the above description (some people might see it as man's conscience before the gospel and the Holy Spirit only after the gospel), I still see God's hand in drawing such a person.

Scott
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Post by _Homer » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:22 am

Hi Scott,

I realize I left a false impression in my last post. I believe God influences people in many ways, particularly through hard times. I prayed for "a lost sheep" for twenty years, praying that God would hurt him - just not too much! It worked! Suffering came and he is back in the fold! In his case however, he was raised in the church.

Your comment about the conscience is well taken, but the conscience can be trained not to bother a person. We can be yery good a rationalizing our wrong behavior, whether it is sin or just something not good for us.

I once read a comment in a debate that I believe is true. In effect the person said that no one can be found in the world, where the gospel has not gone, with sufficient knowledge about God to be saved.

The question I ask, and never get answered by a Calvinist, I would ask of the author of the piece you posted. Was Jesus aware of what you teach? If so, why did He weep over sinners who would not repent? The teaching seems to make Jesus either ignorant or insincere and is thus implausible to me.
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Post by _Scott » Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:18 am

Homer wrote: I once read a comment in a debate that I believe is true. In effect the person said that no one can be found in the world, where the gospel has not gone, with sufficient knowledge about God to be saved.
Hi Homer,

Your qoute is an interesting statement that some (not me) might view as an argument for Calvinism. I think the argument might go something like this. Since someone cannot be saved without sufficient knowledge of God (which can only come through the gospel) then people in the world who have never heard the gospel were obviously not chosen since God did not send anyone to tell them the gospel.
I suspect more people would hear the gospel if more believers (Calvinist and otherwise) truly believed it could make a difference in the eternal destiny of the hearer. A Calvinist who has taught from the Bible several times at an evangelistic outreach that my wife and I are involved in told us recently that he wished that his church had a greater emphasis on evangelism than it does. He said he misses being invovled in sharing his faith on a regular basis. I don't think that they forbid in any way him sharing his faith. In fact, his church is asking for more info. on how they can get involved in outreach in the local area. At least one of the members of his church, that we know, is very evangelistic on a regular basis. But my impression of his comment was that the majority of the body was not overly enthused about evangelism and he felt rather alone in his desire to share his faith.
In this busy world we live in, it is no surprise that evangelism is not at the top of the list of things to do with your time if you believe in Calvinism. Why waste your time telling people about Jesus if they haven't been chosen. Since only a remnant will be saved, that would mean that the majority of the people you shared with COULD NOT get saved anyway. Maybe the majority of the people I witness to WOULD NOT want to get saved but at least they could if they wanted to.

A friend of mine is a professor at a missionary training school for a mission that has its main emphasis on reaching tribes that have never heard the gospel before. Many times they are reaching people who have never communicated with or even seen anyone outside of their own isolated tribe in a remote location somewhere. He told me that in the entire history of their missions efforts, they have never once discovered a group of people who were worshipping the one true God without any outside influence. But he said they all were worshipping something, mostly animals, nature, spirits or a combination of these.

Some people believe that God will give more light to any person who responds to the light that God gives to all mankind through the witness of creation. This would seem to be in keeping with God's characteristics of mercy, grace and love. Also His desire that all men everywhere might be saved. What do you think about this?

Scott
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Post by _Homer » Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:21 am

Hi Scott,

Interesting comments; I agree.

When I say "get saved" I mean justified as we understand it. It would seem to me that on judgement day, if we are justified, we have no need of mercy as we are in Christ. This would not preclude God from showing mercy to someone who is not. Perhaps they would have readily accepted the gospel had they heard it. Does this make sense?

Any comment on this wild idea Steve?

Some will probably put me in the heretic category but I think we can be too quick to judge in the condemning sense; that's God's business.

Homer
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