I was kinda wondering the same thing. Damon?achsteven wrote:Damon, not sure if I see the picture you've painted - are you suggesting that the Son is lying to the Father by granting pardon to the faithful?
A Question for Damon
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_Anonymous
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Well, that's the way it seems to me. I mean. how else would one describe the Son vouching for us as if we had not sinned? If that's not what the Son does, then why are our sins described as being covered? (See, for instance, Psalm 32:1-2. Also, the "Day of Atonement" in Hebrew is "Yom Kippur" which literally means the Day of Covering.)
It just seems to me that this is the most reasonable way to understand it.
Damon
It just seems to me that this is the most reasonable way to understand it.
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Anonymous
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I have no idea what you're talking about. 
The whole idea of "covering" is that the sins are still there (and in this life, their effects and results haven't been removed), but they've been covered so that they can't be seen.
We are, in effect, covered by the righteousness of Christ.
Now, Christ's sacrifice ended the need to continually sacrifice animals in order to cover our sins. However, why did Christ have to die in the first place? Because the effects of our sins upon ourselves and others is death. We're not just talking punishment, here. DEATH IS THE EFFECT, THE END RESULT OF SIN.
Let's take the example of Adam and Eve in the Garden. When Adam pointed the finger of blame at God and at Eve, what happened? Eve suffered, because she had been unjustly accused. God Himself suffered for the same reason. And Adam suffered, because he sabotaged the blessing of a loving wife and a loving God in order to cover his sin.
That's not how sins should be covered! Rather, they should be covered because the person desires to overcome their sins. Nevertheless, the effect or end result of sin is still "death".
Look at it this way. Before Adam pointed the finger of blame at Eve, their relationship was one of complete love and trust. Afterwards, the love and trust that they had for one another was diminished as a result of what Adam did. You've heard the saying that love lasts forever? Well, only in the absence of sin. Otherwise, love becomes subject to "death." Not that their love did die or even would die, but Adam put it at risk. So, death not only manifested on an emotional level for Adam and Eve, but also on a physical level. They got old and they died.
In order to pay the toll of death, Christ had to take that toll upon Himself. He had to personally feel the effects and end results of everyone's sin, emotionally, physically and in every other way. His suffering and death forever covered our sins. Christ can't take away the reality that we've sinned, but He can take away the effects.
Does that make sense?
Damon
The whole idea of "covering" is that the sins are still there (and in this life, their effects and results haven't been removed), but they've been covered so that they can't be seen.
We are, in effect, covered by the righteousness of Christ.
Now, Christ's sacrifice ended the need to continually sacrifice animals in order to cover our sins. However, why did Christ have to die in the first place? Because the effects of our sins upon ourselves and others is death. We're not just talking punishment, here. DEATH IS THE EFFECT, THE END RESULT OF SIN.
Let's take the example of Adam and Eve in the Garden. When Adam pointed the finger of blame at God and at Eve, what happened? Eve suffered, because she had been unjustly accused. God Himself suffered for the same reason. And Adam suffered, because he sabotaged the blessing of a loving wife and a loving God in order to cover his sin.
That's not how sins should be covered! Rather, they should be covered because the person desires to overcome their sins. Nevertheless, the effect or end result of sin is still "death".
Look at it this way. Before Adam pointed the finger of blame at Eve, their relationship was one of complete love and trust. Afterwards, the love and trust that they had for one another was diminished as a result of what Adam did. You've heard the saying that love lasts forever? Well, only in the absence of sin. Otherwise, love becomes subject to "death." Not that their love did die or even would die, but Adam put it at risk. So, death not only manifested on an emotional level for Adam and Eve, but also on a physical level. They got old and they died.
In order to pay the toll of death, Christ had to take that toll upon Himself. He had to personally feel the effects and end results of everyone's sin, emotionally, physically and in every other way. His suffering and death forever covered our sins. Christ can't take away the reality that we've sinned, but He can take away the effects.
Does that make sense?
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Anonymous
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Yeah, that makes sense. I thought that you were saying that Christ covers our sin he was covering as in telling a falsehood to hide the truth. I was saying, kind of flippantly, that He is a covering like what you said above.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Well, in a sense I do see Christ as "telling a falsehood" by covering our sins in the eyes of the Father. By covering them, it's as if we've never sinned in the first place, although the reality is that we have. I just think it makes more sense to look at it as not just Christ assuming the responsibility for the effects of our sins - that's certainly true - but also making us appear as if we hadn't sinned at all. "Though your sins are as scarlet, they will become white as snow," for example (Isa. 1:18 ).
Damon
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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