Were Adam and Eve vegans?

[steve7150]

I saw Bill Clinton on CNN recently and after having by-pass surgery and later having stents put in he received letters from two doctors supporting vegan diets without any oils including olive oil. Clinton's been on it for some time now and all his health metrics are much improved so i was intrigued. I found that this vegan minus oils diet is promoted by three doctors , John Mcdougall, Dean Ornish and Caldwell Eddelstyn and Eddelstyn started tracking his patients beginning in 1985. According to him a plant based, 10% fat diet alone will eventually get your cholesterol under 150 and at that point the body can not produce placque to clog your arteries making you in effect heart attack proof. There are other benefits that stem from this life style change like weight loss, more energy, lower blood pressure, better sleep and better overall health.
I have watched a couple of John Mcdougall's videos after googling him and if he is accurate it really scares you into not wanting to eat dairy or meat if you know what animals eat and what diseases they carry. I've been on this for a couple of weeks and i know i sleep better, i have lost a few pounds and have more stamina. Anyway i assume Adam and Eve were meant to be vegans since they could only eat from the garden until they sinned and only then were permitted to eat flesh.

[Suzana]

Hi Steve7150,

It sounds interesting; I've had a bit of a look at this diet, and wouldn't mind trying it, but it's a bit drastic and I do have questions.

- I imagine Adam & Eve were meant to be vegans, but since then - after the flood - God said: Gen 9:3 "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.

I find it difficult to believe that the things God approved would be so bad for us. And Jesus ate fish. Or Is it just a matter of the unnatural additives involved in raising animals today?
Another point I don't understand is the total prohibition of oils, even olive oil - i'm wondering why Elijah would have made a supply of oil available supernaturally to that widow, if it was so deleterious to one's health. (I acknowledge I may not have done enough research into the vegan position).

I've read other material on diets diametrically opposed to this one, eg. the high protein low carb diet, and their devotees also report wonderful results; I have the same questions though, why God made such an abundant variety of vegetables, grains and fruits?
It's all very confusing!
If I had some serious medical condition I would be tempted to make such a radical change, but I'm mainly interested in losing some weight, and increasing energy levels; I wonder if a modified diet would be any good - mainly vegetarian, but a bit of milk in my coffee - not sure that soy milk would do it; but I would really really miss cheese .

[RICHinCHRIST]

Thanks for posting, steve. I've been considering going vegetarian (or maybe even vegan) for a while, actually. I can relate with Suzana when she says it is quite a drastic change. That is mostly why I haven't pursued it fully. I notice that I often have more energy when I eat less food (like only one meal a day, or maybe two small ones). If I eat three large meals in a day, I'm more prone to be unproductive and lazy (especially if I eat steak or other red meats).

But in regards to vegetarianism and veganism, I used to always think it was a weird thing, but I've become more open-minded to it. I used to poke fun at the idea of veganism, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is much more healthier since it was God's original design. God did permit meat to be eaten in the OT (and in the NT) like Suzana mentioned, but it seems that God also allowed men to marry multiple wives without rebuking them. Perhaps veganism is God's original design just like monogamy is God's original design. I know that is quite a drastic comparison, but perhaps it is true. It's not a sin to eat meat, obviously, since God has made all things clean, but perhaps it is a healthier choice and one that might be a greater benefit to a Christian who is dedicated to giving his body fully to God in this matter. I'm just speculating...

Or Is it just a matter of the unnatural additives involved in raising animals today?

I think this probably has a lot do with it. I saw a documentary called "Food Inc." which talked about this kind of stuff and it was pretty enlightening.

Perhaps there is a middle ground though. Eat like a vegan for 30 days and then have a pork burrito on the 31st day. I'm sure you would have many great health benefits by eating more healthy more consistently, but by still indulging in eating meats and dairy products only once in a while. Why must we legalistically become permanent vegans or vegetarians?

[TK]

Rich wrote:

Why must we legalistically become permanent vegans or vegetarians?

I only think one would do so if they saw it as a MORAL choice. But then there are other issues- can you use leather products, feather pillows, whale oil lamps, etc (j/k about the whale oil lamps).

I would consider going vegetarian for a season(perhaps as an extended meat fast), but I think it would get tiresome rather quickly. I know you can do a lot of creative things with veggies and tofu (blechh) but all that takes a lot of time and planning and a lot of veggies on hand. I suppose after a while you would get used to it. I think it would be very difficult for me, at least, to avoid all dairy . And people with thyroid issues (not me thank goodness) arent supposed to eat a lot of soy products.

TK

[steve7150]

I imagine Adam & Eve were meant to be vegans, but since then - after the flood - God said: Gen 9:3 "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.

I find it difficult to believe that the things God approved would be so bad for us. And Jesus ate fish. Or Is it just a matter of the unnatural additives involved in raising animals today?
Another point I don't understand is the total prohibition of oils, even olive oil - i'm wondering why Elijah would have made a supply of oil available supernaturally to that widow, if it was so deleterious to one's health. (I acknowledge I may not have done enough research into the vegan position).







Hi Suzana,
I think once sin came into the world and death came to every man it did'nt matter much what man ate, he was going to die anyway. The interesting thing is that over the years i've seen many fat vegans and i thought to myself, how is that possible? Now i know after watching Caldwell Esselstyn's and John Mcdougall's videos which you can google or You Tube. Esselstyn showed how healthy blood looks which is half a deep red color and the other half a clear plasma but when any oils are added the plasma clouds up from the fat. Esselstyn works at the Cleveland Clinic and has monitered his patients since 1985 and according to him 100% have had substantial health benefits. Once your cholesteral gets below 150 the body can not manufacture plaque and according to him you become heart attack proof.
However i began this diet for a much more superficial reason which was that i play singles tennis regularly and constantly run out of breath so when i saw Bill Clinton say that it helped his stamina when he runs, that motivated me to try it and i finally found something i could agree on with Bill Clinton, it does help stamina. I can't do the diet perfectly because we eat out sometimes and i know they cook in oil and sometimes i have no choice but to order fish , but i''m doing it as best i can. I drink Almond milk and eat Ezekial bread and buy Amy's frozen dinners and soups many of which are vegan because as Dean Ornish said , the diet will benefit you to the extent you do it. It's worth it.

[backwoodsman]

Perhaps there is a middle ground though. Eat like a vegan for 30 days and then have a pork burrito on the 31st day.

Middle ground is always good.. I think I'll follow your plan, but modified a little: Eat vegan for 4 hours, then have a hamburger..

[Suzana]

……over the years i've seen many fat vegans…..

NOOOOO! please don't take away a whole half of the reason I'm attracted to this diet!
Actually I have been doing more reading on Dr Mcdougall's site (newsletter articles & discussion board, and a youtube lecture) & it does sound like it might be worthwhile trying out.

At this stage I'm not ready to plunge in head-first but am willing to experiment with it as much as possible - substantial changes, but allow occasional food (in drastically smaller amounts) from the forbidden list.
[Actually I've already started, but for example intend to finish the natural yoghurt in my fridge, but the large block of cheese I will give to my son. And have fish occasionally. Maybe a scraping of butter on my whole grain toast. Yesterday I only had two coffees instead of four or five, and this morning I tried it with half soy/half cow milk, wasn't too bad.]
I'll see how it goes.

Oh, and cake. I reserve the right to have cake at least once a week, if I want. I won't be leagalistic about it.

[TK]

Hey Suzana-

does vegemite count as vegan?

TK

[Suzana]

It certainly should! No fat, dairy or meat. Yummy with rye toast. Maybe a tiny tiny scrape of butter when no one's looking...

[TK]

That's something I've always wanted to try since the Men at Work song ("she just smiled and gave me a vegemite sandwich") but not sure where to find it over here.

TK