What is my responsibility as a Christian?

[steve7150]

. Are we saying the same thing, or do you feel we have to "do our part" (more than faith) to overcome wrongdoing and work righteousness?




Dseusy
No one said "work righteousness" , that's not the point of this discussion. The issue as i understand it is the role of "good works" and yes it comes from God but we are not robots or stones so we receive the power to do good works but clearly believers use this power in differing degrees. In addition as i said before Paul also said "God is looking for a people zealous for good works."
That sounds like a strong statement and also in the Parable of the Talents the servant who did nothing was called wicked.
Perhaps it's the fear of condemnation that bothers you but as i'm sure you know Rom 8.1 says "there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus" but we are judged though we are not condemned. I guess it's diificult to be judged yet not condemned , but that's how i understand scripture and certainly God can do it.

[dseusy]

Steve,

I don't think you understand what I am trying to communicate. My suggestion in no way was sarcastic. It sounds sarcastic if you misunderstand my perspective- but I will repeat my stance on Jesus' commands again: they are law, I uphold them, we should retain them/guard them/keep them, and they lead us to Christ. If someone doesn't understand mercy, the application of the law will hopefully lead them there. That was my objective concerning my exhortation to write down the commands and log adherence. If I sarcastically tell someone this, I essentially teach people to disobey Jesus- this is not my objective. My objective is to share what God is teaching me about how He fulfilled Jesus' commands for us.

The points and scriptures you present for my consideration are law. I stated this before, but I will expand on this. The things you have written in response to me have been mostly correct, but they have been about adherence to law. I see Jesus' commands as law, and I feel this view is correct as the original language communicates this. Also, Jesus is speaking the Father's words and commanding us to do things... this is law from God Himself and the Law of Moses hasn't gone anywhere just because we don't uphold it today. It is still very much in place and the only One who saves us from its requirements is Jesus Christ. Jesus stated that He didn't come to abolish the law. He also restated law, elevated it to the motives of the heart, and commanded obedience. Jesus spoke the law before His death- when we are wise builders, and men who remember what we look like (James), we obey Jesus' commands- not because righteousness comes from them but because we hopefully find that sin will increase, and we will see ourselves as we are- sinful.

I live in Christ, and continuing in faith (which is also a gift, Ephesians 2:8-9) is what I am accountable for. Giving account for my worldly life is a law abiding statement. I believe those passages have everything to do with living under the law. We will give an account of ourselves to God, but I don't view this as Him holding believers responsible for their worldly sins (the ones that don't lead to death).
Romans 4:8 ""BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." Steve, we have spoken past each other, and I certainly have much to learn about God's grace. It blows me away, and I feel I have only scratched the surface.

Concerning responsibilities, I don't believe we deny our responsibility... we purposefully accept a gift which appeases our responsibility- yet gives all credit to the giver of the gift. We have fulfilled our responsibility through Christ- actually He fulfilled it on our behalf, but we share in the benefits. I agree with you that a command from a legitimate authority creates a responsibility to obey. We "ought" to obey... we "should" obey... we have a "responsibility" to obey... UNDER LAW!!! What happens to the command and the responsibility when it is fulfilled??? What did Jesus fulfill???

I haven't written much in response to the verses you have presented, not because I have ignored them, but because you don't seem to agree with me that they are law. I don't want to argue for argument's sake, but I do desire to gently persuade.

Steve, thank you for the clarification on "responsibility". You are right. When I stated irresponsibility I really meant a violation of a responsibility, or a failed obligation.

You stated, "When I have been saying we have a responsibility to obey Christ, I have not been saying that we actually always fulfill that responsibility properly. Responsibility speaks of what we should do. Performance describes what actually happens."

If we fail to perform an obligation to a just God, what is the consequence? What is the consequence of sin? Please answer these two specific questions.

If we do not fulfill a responsibility, we are not obeying Jesus. If disobeying Jesus' commands is a sin, then we should identify the consequence.

You asked, "What do I need Christ for, if I have no responsibility?" My responsibility has been fulfilled because of Christ, and I need Him very much.

Christ's propitiation is what appeased the guilt, and satisfied the responsibility. I am not saying I have no responsibility, so I don't need Christ... I am saying, I have Christ, so I am no longer a slave, but an adopted son.

We "should", but the "shoulds" are satisfied by faith in Christ, as we are credited with accomplished "shoulds". We began with the Spirit, so let's continue in the Spirit, instead of trying to appease the "shoulds". The Spirit accomplished the "shoulds" under law, and the Spirit will continue to work "shoulds" through our earthly life.

As a human, I have an obligation to God's laws. I am responsible to Him for them. I either comply or I am condemned (this is the beginning of wisdom... the fear of God under His laws). As I build as a wise builder and a man who remembers what he looks like (trying to obey all of God's commands) I find that I do not always comply. Since I cannot stand the thought of condemnation, I know only one solution... one hope, one faith... let Christ be responsible for my obligation under God's laws. Accept His freely offered gift of righteousness. The obligation is fulfilled and I am a new creation... If I were to become responsible again, or obligated to the law- I would instantly be condemned because I would stand guilty under His law once again. I didn't deny my responsibility- I found a solution for it... but it wasn't me accomplishing it- it was Jesus on my behalf. So, I didn't deny my responsibility, nor do I currently- I remain in Him and my responsibility is fulfilled.

I don't pretend no duties exist- I acknowledge the duties have been done. God is gracious and forgave sin once for all. It continues to be forgiven, but it was done on the cross.

You wrote, "Someday, I hope, you will get a revelation of the grace of God, and it will set you free from your terrified denial of responsibility."

His love drove out my terror. I have a revelation of God's grace. What is a terrified denial of responsibility? Isn't that contradictory? If I denied responsibility, what would I be afraid of? But since I was terrified of my unfulfilled responsibility, and I couldn't accomplish it, I faced it head-on and gave it to Christ

I hope to encourage, and not to be confusing or maddening.

[steve]

It is enough. No matter what New Testament command is pointed out to you, you duck it by calling it "the Law." In other words, God cannot possibly give us any instructions, because, as soon as He does so, it becomes the Law (a bad thing, apparently). You are using words as you wish, not as they are used in scripture, nor in common English. If we are not going to speak either spriptural language, nor English, then you will ahve to speak with someone else, who may know your private language.

[charleswest]

What about the very first commandment given by God to Adam?

Was it "Law"?

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
law |lô|
ORIGIN Old English lagu, from Old Norse lag ‘something laid down or fixed,’ of Germanic origin and related to lay 1 .

noun
1 (often the law) the system of rules that a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and may enforce by the imposition of penalties : they were taken to court for breaking the law | a license is required by law | [as adj. ] law enforcement.
• an individual rule as part of such a system : an initiative to tighten up the laws on pornography.
• such systems as a subject of study or as the basis of the legal profession : he was still practicing law | [as adj. ] a law firm. Compare with jurisprudence .
• a thing regarded as having the binding force or effect of a formal system of rules : what he said was law.
• ( the law) informal the police : he'd never been in trouble with the law in his life.
• statutory law and the common law. Compare with equity .
• a rule defining correct procedure or behavior in a sport : the laws of the game.
2 a statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present : the second law of thermodynamics.
• a generalization based on a fact or event perceived to be recurrent : the first law of American corporate life is that dead wood floats.
3 the body of divine commandments as expressed in the Bible or other religious texts.
• ( the Law) the Pentateuch as distinct from the other parts of the Hebrew Bible (the Prophets and the Writings).
• (also the Law of Moses) the precepts of the Pentateuch. Compare with Torah .
PHRASES
at (or in) law according to or concerned with the laws of a country : an agreement enforceable at law | an attorney-at-law.
be a law unto oneself behave in a manner that is not conventional or predictable.
go to law resort to legal action in order to settle a matter.
law and order a situation characterized by respect for and obedience to the rules of a society.
the law of the jungle see jungle .
lay down the law issue instructions to other people in an authoritative or dogmatic way.
take the law into one's own hands punish someone for an offense according to one's own ideas of justice, esp. in an illegal or violent way.
take someone to law initiate legal proceedings against someone.
there's no law against it informal used in spoken English to assert that one is doing nothing wrong, esp. in response to an actual or implied criticism : I can laugh, can't I? There's no law against it.
ORIGIN Old English lagu, from Old Norse lag ‘something laid down or fixed,’ of Germanic origin and related to lay 1 .

[dseusy]

Steve,

I implore you to consider your words, "No matter what N.T. command is pointed out to you, you duck it by calling it "the law". Commands from God are law!! They are holy. They are just. They are righteous. I am not ducking it- The N.T. commands are commands. What else would I call them? Principles? Exhortations? These are also in the N.T., but we are just talking about the actual commands. What is confusing about this? The law is not a bad thing.

Romans 7:7
Romans 7:12
"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."

I was once alive apart from the Law ; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died ; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. Romans 7

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Romans 2

From God, law is law is law is law. Lawlessness is sin and leads to death. Jesus died for all of it. If God gives us "instructions" why do we call it sin when we disobey? Because it is lawlessness to disobey God's instructions, in effect- inevitably making the instruction... law.

I am not ducking- I am posting to encourage believers to walk in newness of life- that their sin today and forever has already been dealt with and we can confidently approach the Lord with the assurance He Himself has given us- He is the foundation the wise builder builds on- He is the rock. We apply His commands, dig down deep and build a foundation on the rock. Our application of the commands in and of themselves are not a sure foundation, but the knowledge of the mystery of Christ which comes by our "digging" sets us free and gives us footing that will never fail.

I am using words according to their English definition according to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, which I previously posted concerning responsibility. Look up the use of the word responsibility or responsible in the N.T.- you will find it used very little, and in keeping with my use in these posts.

Please consider the magnitude of Jesus' commands and consider the just punishment of disobedience. His commands are not suggestions. They describe love, and if we are to neglect them, we neglect Him.

[Amyfree]

Three way mirrors are probably a crime of some kind and the "law" could persecute if it were a huge deal. There's the sharia
law, sorry, but that sounds like what that fellow is talking about. If so, which I doubt that you're a devout middle easterner, we don't study the koran quaran.

The ten commandments, thou shall not murder, steal, covet thy neighbor, use the Lord's name in vain, or is that Catholic.
A grudge I am reading about strangely sounds like a stalker that I know, in face I've witnessed him beat the tar out of a 20
year old guy, when the stalker is italian and in his late fourties. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic his sister told me.

Anyway, if you can't forgive friends for not treating you right, why should God forgive you.

[dseusy]

Charleswest,

What was the first commandment given by God to Adam?

Genesis 1:27-28
"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Genesis 2:16-18
"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.' And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.'"

God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. But before Eve was created, He commanded Adam concerning the tree. The first command carried with it the consequence of spiritual death. I would have to say that yes, this command is law, because Adam's lawlessness carried the same penalty as sin (which is lawlessness, 1 John 3:4)- spiritual death. God told Adam he would die the day he "eat(s) of it". Satan's trick was to deceive Eve concerning this death...

Genesis 3:4-5
Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

However, God was not lying- from my understanding, they died spiritually that same day.

Genesis 3:17
Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.

God asserts here, that it was a command. God's commands are God's laws.

[dseusy]

Amyfree,

I'm not following you, but as far as God's forgiveness goes... it is comforting for me to know that God's forgiveness and love is not like our forgiveness or love. He loves and forgives perfectly and completely. I don't feel I deserve it- but He's my only hope.

[steve7150]

Dseusy,
In Col 2.14 Paul says "having cancelled the written code with it's regulations , that was against us and that stood opposed to us , he took it away nailing it to the cross."

Paul says the certificate of debt we owe for not keeping the law of Moses is finished or paid in full or "fulfilled."

The principals Jesus & his Apostles give throuhout the NT are describing the sanctfication process of the believer being transformed into the image of Christ. Whatever this means to you personally is directly connected to the condition of your heart as it is to any believer.

[charleswest]

Charleswest,

What was the first commandment given by God to Adam?

Genesis 1:27-28
"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Genesis 2:16-18
"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.' And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.'"

God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. But before Eve was created, He commanded Adam concerning the tree. The first command carried with it the consequence of spiritual death. I would have to say that yes, this command is law, because Adam's lawlessness carried the same penalty as sin (which is lawlessness, 1 John 3:4)- spiritual death. God told Adam he would die the day he "eat(s) of it". Satan's trick was to deceive Eve concerning this death...

Genesis 3:4-5
Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

However, God was not lying- from my understanding, they died spiritually that same day.

Genesis 3:17
Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.

God asserts here, that it was a command. God's commands are God's laws.

1. This part will be better served on a new thread, but I consider the possibility that Adam laid the foundation for his wife's failure.

2. Jesus defined life as knowing the Father. It would seem the disobedience to the first command "killed" the family relationship, the sonship that Adam and Eve had, although they were still political subjects to God their Creator.

P.S. They both died within the first thousand years of their days of life, thereby physically dying in the "day" they ate (according to God's marking of time).