What is my responsibility as a Christian?

dseusy
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Re: What is my responsibility as a Christian?

Post by dseusy » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:46 am

Doug,

I am not at all trying to discount forgiveness or communicate that God doesn't grant it... what I am trying to say is that we already have forgiveness in Christ... it was granted once for all. If we ask for it more than once, we are asking for something we already have. The core of the Gospel is a free gift of forgiveness that covers us completely, once for all. If God gave us a Christmas present, we wouldn't ask for it again, because His answer would be, "I understand why you are asking for this again, but son, I already gave it to you." Through faith, our sin has been dealt with (even though it continues in our flesh). The joy of being a Christian is never having to be guilty again... we have been credited HIS righteousness- HE fulfilled the law and there is no law left to sin against. Therefore, forgiveness is a permanent gift we already have. Repentance is a continual heart attitude because of the wretchedness of our flesh, but repenting from these dead works (our stumbling in the flesh) is something we can move past (Hebrews 6:1). We (including myself and most of the Christians I know) get confused about continual repenting and asking for forgiveness because we don't understand our new life, and the separation between the flesh and our born again spirit. Paul states in Romans 7, that when we do what we hate (we agree that God's commands/ His law is good, but we still manage somehow to screw up) it is no longer us sinning, but sin living in us. This sin that we are asking forgiveness for is no longer our responsibility- it was nailed to the cross. The old has gone and the new has come... we have been reconciled to God, through faith, and the curtain was torn because sin was effectively "handled".

If you hate your sin, and agree that the law is good, and trust in Jesus Christ, you are free from sin, including re-asking for a gift already granted.

dseusy
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Re: What is my responsibility as a Christian?

Post by dseusy » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:59 am

Steve,

I am not trying to suggest or assume. I am sincerely asking a legitimate question... Do we take Jesus' commands seriously? If we do, we try to obey them. All of them. Have you tried this?

I'm confident that your answer is yes, but is the feedback of "Jame's mirror" taking place? If we continue to look at Jesus' commands and do them, not forgetting any of them, but doing them we will see what kind of people we are.

Concerning myself, this is what I am saying:

Do I love everyone as Christ loves me? I have certainly tried to, but I could never perform this. God's love is perfect, and never fails. My love fails.
Am I perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect? Not a chance. I stumble and have to ask for forgiveness (used to).
Have I ever cut off a limb that caused me to sin? I've never shed blood in my effort to stop sinning.
Do I hate my mother, father, wife, children, and myself? Not really... I thought I was suppose to love them? Now I'm confused (used to be).

Do I do the commands which God requires? Here's where the mystery kicks in. The works which God requires is this... to trust in the whom He sent. Yes, I do this.
Now do I love as Christ does? Spiritually, yes, and His Spirit pours forth fruit in my life/in my flesh, but the flesh is still wretched and still fails.
Now am I perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect? Spiritually, yes, as I have been credited HIS perfection (His righteousness and purity) Philippians 3:9, 1 John 3:3 But my flesh is not perfect
Now have I cut off any limbs? I never got there, Jesus shed His blood for me.
Do I hate people and myself? Yes. I hate their flesh/their worldly selves just as I hate my own- but I love their new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17).

I am not accustomed to being in different "Christian" circles. I grew up in non-denominational Christian schools, was part of very reasonable churches, and was "discipled" by men who loved God and taught me to hear, read, study, memorize and meditate on God's Word and live on it as my daily bread. I was taught to apply His Word to my life and obey the Lord. I spent hours in daily devotions to know His ways and grow into maturity. I went to Grace University in Omaha and took hermeneutics, O.T. survey, and diligently served as a leader in ministering to airmen at an Air Force base. I made disciples myself, who are continuing in their faith. These were all gifts from the Lord and I have enjoyed participating in His work. However, I am a broken man. My faith has not failed and I spend no less time pursuing God, but I am nonetheless, broken (yet, with hope for eternity).

I talk with Christians today who state, "I am to obey." I ask, "Are you obeying?" They answer, "Well, mostly, but when I mess up I know I am forgiven." Then, I conclude "I am to obey" is loosely stated. If we "are to" we must. The just penalty for sin is death. If we know we are forgiven, and we started our faith with His Spirit, why are we acting as if we "are to" obey, as if our works or obedience to Jesus is saving us? If we insist it isn't, why do we ask for forgiveness for sinning against Jesus' commands? One may almost say that justice requires the shedding of blood... Are His commands so loose that there is no penalty? It seems as if we are turning Jesus' commands into a revised Law of Moses, inserting ourselves under it, yet acting as if there is no just penalty for our disobedience.

Either our disobedience to Jesus' commands is a sin or it isn't. If it is, this sin must be paid for. Did Jesus die for this sin? If He did, it is covered- it is fulfilled. He died to fulfill the Law of Moses, and so we no longer sacrifice animals or require circumcision or various other commands, even though this law is still in effect for those who haven't trusted in Him. My exhortation is to trust in Him, and trust His fulfillment of all of God's laws. Not that we sin so that grace might increase, but because we need it, and once we are a new creation we don't sin (spiritually)- there is no longer a law over us to sin against.

If I am under Jesus' commands, I am under law. I am under O.T. law as well, since Jesus taught it and took it to a motives of the heart level. I am not preaching that Jesus' commands are to be ignored... I am preaching that Jesus taught law and died to fulfill law on our behalf.

Steve, I understand your "if a=b and b=c, then a=c" analogy. My problem is that this analogy only applies to a 3 dimensional realm- we have to incorporate a fourth realm... that of the Spirit.

Responsibility: something for which one is responsible, accountable, or liable; a burden

I believe that Jesus offered to be responsible on my behalf. He offered to be accountable for my sin. He is liable, because He offered to be and I let Him (with the Father that drew me, of course- John 6:44, 65). He bore my burden.

Therefore, I am not responsible, no longer bear guilt for the sin of my spirit, and no longer need forgiveness for my spirit- this may sound wrong but think through it... Jesus' death mixed with God's grace and my faith credits me His righteousness- I am a new spiritual creation who does not sin (no law over me, no lack of righteousness- for I have His), and therefore does not require ongoing forgiveness... I was forgiven at the cross and it is past tense... I was responsible before faith and it is past tense. The Spirit makes your analogy past tense and only applicable under law.

steve7150
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Re: What is my responsibility as a Christian?

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:39 am

Do I love everyone as Christ loves me? I have certainly tried to, but I could never perform this. God's love is perfect, and never fails. My love fails.
Am I perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect? Not a chance. I stumble and have to ask for forgiveness (used to).
Have I ever cut off a limb that caused me to sin? I've never shed blood in my effort to stop sinning.
Do I hate my mother, father, wife, children, and myself? Not really... I thought I was suppose to love them? Now I'm confused (used to be).








Dsuesy,
You know what hyperbole is i presume, so you do understand that when Jesus makes statements like "hate your mother" he means put God ahead of your mother, father and family. Also be perfect means "strive to be perfect" , it's the intention of the heart not the perfection of following the command. So regarding your statements that we are already forgiven so why ask for forgiveness? Apparently we are forgiven in a certain sense pertaining to salvation yet John explicitly tells us we all sin and should confess our sins , repent and ask forgiveness even though we are already forgiven for salvation he must be referring to fellowship since he had just said "if we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness , we lie and do not live by the truth". 1st John 1.6,
You said if you have to follow Jesus commands you are also under the OT law & again i refer you to James who called Jesus commands the "law of liberty" , because although they may seem difficult they actually do free you. For example our flesh is selfish yet Jesus said "it is more blessed to give then to receive" and i ask you how you feel when you give to the poor? Jesus said his yoke is light and it is if we can see past our flesh.
.

dseusy
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Re: What is my responsibility as a Christian?

Post by dseusy » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:02 am

Steve7150,

Concerning James, what is the word implanted?

What is the perfect law?

What is the law of liberty?

Then, in James 2, which law is he speaking about?

James 2:12 ties it back in, stating that we will be judged by the law of liberty. If we transgress the law of liberty, we are sinning and will be convicted by the law as transgressors.

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." James 2:10

I think we should be consistent with the context of law spoken about by James in these two chapters. I believe the law of liberty is called this because law is universally God's law and brings us to Christ- to liberty.

If we are responsible to please God we are obligated to do so- we are accountable to it and liable for neglecting it. Pleasing God cannot be accomplished without faith- Hebrews 11:6. Psalm 5:12 states,
"For it is You who blesses the righteous man, O LORD, You surround him with favor as with a shield." We are only righteous because of Christ, so we automatically please Him/have his favor, by trusting the imparted righteousness through Christ.

dseusy
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Re: What is my responsibility as a Christian?

Post by dseusy » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:16 am

Steve7150,

If we label commands as hyperbole, we are breaking commonly accepted rules of literature and interpretation. Hyperbole is an exaggeration. When Jesus is stating here a condition of being a disciple, it is a literal command. If we take seemingly impossible commands and write them off as an exaggeration, we are tweaking Jesus' words. Can you provide any examples where Jesus commands something and uses exaggeration to communicate it? I understand this command appears to be a contradiction, but let's not write it off based on human understanding. I believe this command makes perfect sense as God's Word divides between what is of the flesh and what is of the spirit.

Additionally, Jesus didn't state, "strive to be perfect", He stated, "be perfect". "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

If Jesus would have illustrated these points with parables, I might agree with you, but I feel Jesus was pretty literal, to the point, and clear when He spoke like this.

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Homer
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Re: What is my responsibility as a Christian?

Post by Homer » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:01 pm

Hi Dseusy,

Rather than seeing Jesus' commands as literal or else hyperbole, why not consider them as principles? When Jesus commands that we carry the load two miles when asked to carry it one mile, is He stating a principle - that we must be willing to go beyond the minimum when someone needs help? Isn't that what the law of love entails?

Imagine that a person needs a ride from where I live to Albany, 20 miles away, for a doctor's appointment. Since Jesus said to go twice as far, I take the person to Salem which is 40 miles away. You immediately recognize that makes no sense. Jesus did not command nonsense. And what if a person asks for money? Jesus said to give to the one who asks you and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. But what if the person wants the money to buy drugs or get drunk? (That has actually happened to me.) I believe that there is an unstated "as appropriate" that goes with much of the sermon on the mount. We need to ask if our actions are consistent with "the law of love".

steve7150
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Re: What is my responsibility as a Christian?

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:21 pm

If we are responsible to please God we are obligated to do so- we are accountable to it and liable for neglecting it. Pleasing God cannot be accomplished without faith- Hebrews 11:6. Psalm 5:12 states,
"For it is You who blesses the righteous man, O LORD, You surround him with favor as with a shield." We are only righteous because of Christ, so we automatically please Him/have his favor, by trusting the imparted righteousness through Christ.dseusy







Dseusy,
I agree with imputed righteousness and that faith pleases God because scripture explicitly states this yet this same author also says that God is looking for a people zealous for good works. Paul and James both talked about "works" , John talked about losing fellowship if we walk in darkness so the entirety of scripture must be considered. There is grace and faith and forgiveness and yes there are "works" the fruit of salvation based on Christ's statements as well as his Apostles. All of this is in scripture and they all compliment each other by God working in us.

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steve
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Re: What is my responsibility as a Christian?

Post by steve » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:34 pm

Dseusy wrote:

Responsibility: something for which one is responsible, accountable, or liable; a burden

I believe that Jesus offered to be responsible on my behalf. He offered to be accountable for my sin.
So we are not accountable for anything, because that implies responsibility? Nice thoughts! But they do not belong to the Christian faith (perhaps some other that you are mistaking for it?). If scripture agreed with you, I would be glad to do so as well. However, the scripture makes it plain that we are accountable for things we do as Christians:

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matt.12:36)

"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Rom.14:12)

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account" (Heb.13:17)

steve7150
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Re: What is my responsibility as a Christian?

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:44 pm

If we label commands as hyperbole, we are breaking commonly accepted rules of literature and interpretation. Hyperbole is an exaggeration. When Jesus is stating here a condition of being a disciple, it is a literal command. If we take seemingly impossible commands and write them off as an exaggeration, we are tweaking Jesus' words. Can you provide any examples where Jesus commands something and uses exaggeration to communicate it? I understand this command appears to be a contradiction, but let's not write it off based on human understanding.


Dseusy,
If i use human understanding you will have to pardon me as i am human and Isaiah did tell us to reason together. So you take cutting off your hand as a literal command as well as hating your mother? Hyperbole as a biblical tool is exaggeration not for the purpose of misleading , but for the purpose of emphasizing an important truth. Jesus did use this method sometimes and it is meant for us to think and meditate on the meaning of his words.
We in our western culture value precision because our culture has evolved into this mindset which also leads us to believe that "literal communication" is more precise and accurate and even more intelligent. That's so called "human understanding" but the bible is full of symbolism and poetic language as well as literalism, but these are all a part of God's way of communicating with us and it's up to us to use discernment to understand the intended meaning behind the words.

Amyfree
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Re: What is my responsibility as a Christian?

Post by Amyfree » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:34 pm

The ten commandments tell us what we're supposed to obey. And for every sin we tell God we're sorry. But if we keep doing that sin, we might not get mercy from God. We may sin seven times and ask for forgiveness seven times but if we don't try to stop the sin God won't wink he'll just look at you like you're some kind of faux. I thought the law of liberty means freedom from bondage and captivity etc., freedom from external control and interference.

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