Fleshly discipline to help spiritual discipline?

[Ian]

I find that if I have exercise my body well, eat and drink healthily and abstain from sexual impurity (the list could be bigger but those would be the three cornerstones for me), I can more readily discipline myself to the task of prayer, reading the Word and so on. Am I at risk of putting the cart before the horse, or of putting God in a box? Or is being conscious of that risk enough to ward off that danger? Are these signs of a possibly unregenerate person trying to please God in his own strength? Or are they merely practical aids to getting down to important spiritual business between God and I? What do you think?

[Ian]

I meant "avoid" not "abstain from"

[mattrose]

We exist holistically. It makes perfect sense that a well ordered physical life would yield a better environment for spiritual progress. I see absolutely no reason for you to feel as if a healthy lifestyle negatively impacts your spiritual life. Only an OVER-emphasis on the body will do so.

[RickC]

I agree with Matt.

A passage that addresses this topic is 1 Tim 4:18 (from different translations):
(NET)
For “physical exercise [1] has some value, but godliness is valuable in every way. It holds promise for the present life and for the life to come.”

(NIV)
For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

(NASB)
for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
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NET's translation note [1] has: Greek, "bodily training." NET also has the verse in quotations, indicating that this was probably (or possibly) a common saying among early Christians. NASB, the more literal of the three translations, gets to Paul's meaning the best, imo.

In the passage (context) Paul contrasts types of training: bodily training (which would have been understood as the rigorous training athletes underwent) - and - training in godliness. The analogy, and Paul's meaning, would be understood as "In comparison to what temporal benefits athletes derive from their rigorous physical training in this life - the eternal benefits of the exercise toward godliness are beyond compare!"

"Staying in shape" probably wasn't a problem for most century people. Paul worked as a tent-maker and traveled (on horseback and/or walked). The average person had hard physical work to do. Only aristocrats and many of the more well to do lived lavish, sensual, lazy lifestyles. I'm reminded of:

Philippians 3 (NIV)
17Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. 18For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.


V. 19b "their god is their stomach" - (overeating and purging oneself was practiced by Roman governmental officials in their orgies and/or parties)
V. 19d "Their mind is on earthly things" - (not on the exercise/practice of godliness)
==========================================

Today
Unlike first century people, who may have had to walk miles just to get to work; we have cars, and many have "office" jobs or work that doesn't require much physical activity. This isn't true of everyone - (my physically-oriented job keeps me quite "buffed", though I'm currently laid off).

I have Christian friends who have "desk" jobs. Getting on their treadmill or walking/running outside and doing other "workout" stuff is a priority in their lives. They're just taking care of themselves, keeping in good condition, and so on. To my knowledge they don't take it overboard. I don't know what "overboard" might be for them. For myself, it would be if I spent more time and effort than needed to keep myself healthy - to the exclusion of being involved in other things that are of eternal (godly) value.

I suppose I should take a walk this evening...to stay in shape!
Thanks!

[RickC]

I have a question for Ian (Hello Ian)

In your post you wrote:

Are these signs of a possibly unregenerate person trying to please God in his own strength?

I'd like to ask:
Do you have a Calvinistic (or Reformed) background?
(It sounds as if you may).
Are you in any sense concerned you may not be regenerate or "among the elect"?
(That is, if you are assuredly a Christian)?

I hope you don't mind my asking these things. I know that Steve, myself, Matt, and probably a majority of posters on this forum are "non-Calvinist" in orientation. I don't want to 'debate' about this - (or otherwise discuss things in a 'mean-spirited' kind of way). But I am curious.

A Related Experience
Not long ago a Calvinist/Reformed friend of mine emailed me that she was very concerned her son was not among "the elect." What a Calvinist preacher had said on his radio program brought her to near despair about this. She was very upset and concerned, in tears....

I wrote her back saying that any "voice" that brings a discouraging and/or condemning message is suspect, that I would pray for her son, and pointed toward some things her son had said, in which he seemed to be seeking God - or at least thinking about Him. This was to encourage and guide her toward hope, having hope for her son.

God bless you!

[Ian]

I`d overlooked that verse. The NASB version has a different emphasis than the others though. It`s almost saying, "don`t bother with bodily discipline because it has only limited use. The other two imply that it is worth attention because it is of some value. My hunch is also the same as Matt`s. If I don`t hold bodily appetites in check and if I don`t feel good in this "temple", then it stops me even getting off the starting block, and buckling down to prayer etc.

I am far far from being a Calvinist! Though I have been influenced by it more than I would like; a sort of "what if it`s right?" feeling.
I see in Steve an Arminianist with Universalist sympathies, which is one reason I am comfortable with this site.

It`s a long story, and Steve knows more about it than most, but I have fallen away from God and the Church for many years. But the "hound of heaven" is on my case it seems.

[Ian]

or a CI man with UR sympathies!

[RickC]

It`s a long story, and Steve knows more about it than most, but I have fallen away from God and the Church for many years. But the "hound of heaven" is on my case it seems.

I, too, "backslid" and got "hounded" (can relate totally).

In recent months, however, and though I was living a sinful lifestyle, becoming an alcoholic (for one); I've come to see that in my "backsliding" I was fully intent and actively seeking God. I had the "backlidden" lifestyle, no doubt. But the deep quest for truth then....(I don't know how to say this)...was...it seemed I had to get outside of "church" and any and everything I had been taught to find the truth.

In all of it, I can confidently say I left "religion" - (being "I'm spiritual, but not religious").
But I can't say I fully left (and/or rejected) God, nor He me (2 Tim 2:13).

I've confessed Christ (again) for 10 years now.
I pray I never "get religion" or become a religious snob!
I've struggled with this, but not much lately.

Btw, I'm CI and no longer discuss UR.
Anyways, God is closer to us all (believers and not) than we may know!

Acts 17 (NIV)
27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'