The Flood

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njd83
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Re: The Flood

Post by njd83 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:08 pm

by resistance i meant "repulsion" sorry didn't express myself perfectly

yeah true you could assume God wouldn't give angels procreative abilities because they are spirit

but that doesn't preclude it really nor is it a strong disproof because who are we to say spirits are a certain way?

Paul says
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural[soulish] body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural[soulish] body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural[soulish]; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.” (1 Corinthians 15:42–49, NASB95)

If we, who are flesh, are to bear the image the the heavenly. someday. still being in a body, but a future incorruptible one. since our flesh is the workmanship of God which Jesus came and took on flesh to save us in our flesh. Jesus himself is in flesh in heaven, the forerunner of bearing the resurrected, incorruptible, heavenly body, yet with the marks of the stigmata. How can we say for sure the angels who are spiritual, and not "natural", absolutely have no reproductive ability? it doesn't seem completely consistent to me. at least not out of possibility that angels have such powers

And since the ancient accounts all testify to angels coming down and taking wives, I would assume that is the correct interpretation.

edit: added "soulish" since that's the literal greek word behind "natural" which conincides with Paul quoting "Adam, became a living SOUL" Genesis 2:7
Last edited by njd83 on Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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njd83
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Re: The Flood

Post by njd83 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:17 pm

One other point:

Abraham presents food to the angels in Genesis 18/19
“Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. “Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.” (Genesis 18:1–8, NASB95)

“Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.” (Genesis 19:1, NASB95)

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njd83
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Re: The Flood

Post by njd83 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:35 pm

“Man did eat the bread of angels; He sent them food in abundance.” (Psalm 78:25, NASB95)
angels eat bread I guess

Timios
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Re: The Flood

Post by Timios » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:34 pm

Jesus also ate fish after he was raised from the dead, and no longer had an ordinary human body.

Singalphile
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Re: The Flood

Post by Singalphile » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:46 am

Regarding the OP: I don't know. It wouldn't be hard to put together every reference to the flood in the Bible. That's pretty much all we'd have to go on. The earth/land was continually violent and wicked. God decided to kill them all, sooner rather than later, all at once instead of few at a time. Sometimes, at least for me, it makes sense to shut it down and start over, even when the overall goal does not change.

As for the opinions that njd83 expressed, I listen to Michael S. Heiser from time to time (listening to him now, actually, though it has nothing to do with this topic), and he talks about that sort of thing frequently.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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njd83
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Re: The Flood

Post by njd83 » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:08 pm

Since I have access to this stuff, and some of you may not. And some may be interested. here is some more quotes/info:
Book of Jasher - Chapter 4
4. Apostasy to Noah’s Birth

987 AM – Enoch ascends
987 AM – Methuselah King
1 And all the days that Enoch lived upon earth, were three hundred and sixtyfive
years. 2 And when Enoch had ascended into heaven, all the kings of the
earth rose and took Methuselah his son and anointed him, and they caused him
to reign over them in the place of his father. 3 And Methuselah acted uprightly
in the sight of God, as his father Enoch had taught him, and he likewise during
the whole of his life taught the sons of men wisdom, knowledge and the fear of
God, and he did not turn from the good way either to the right or to the left. 4
But in the latter days of Methuselah, the sons of men turned from the Lord, they
corrupted the earth, they robbed and plundered each other, and they rebelled
against God and they transgressed, and they corrupted their ways, and would
not hearken to the voice of Methuselah, but rebelled against him. 5 And the
Lord was exceedingly wroth against them, and the Lord continued to destroy
the seed in those days, so that there was neither sowing nor reaping in the
earth. 6 For when they sowed the ground in order that they might obtain food
for their support, behold, thorns and thistles were produced which they did not
sow. 7 And still the sons of men did not turn from their evil ways, and their
hands were still extended to do evil in the sight of God, and they provoked the
Lord with their evil ways, and the Lord was very wroth, and repented that he
had made man. 8 And he thought to destroy and annihilate them and he did so.

1042 AM – Seth died
9 In those days when Lamech the son of Methuselah was one hundred and sixty
[168] years old, Seth the son of Adam died. 10 And all the days that Seth
lived, were nine hundred and twelve years, and he died. 11 And Lamech was
one hundred and eighty years old when he took Ashmua, the daughter of
Elishaa the son of Enoch his uncle, and she conceived. 12 And at that time the
sons of men sowed the ground, and a little food was produced, yet the sons of
men did not turn from their evil ways, and they trespassed and rebelled against
God.

1056 AM – Noah born
13 And the wife of Lamech conceived and bare him a son at that time, at the
revolution [RHS] of the year. 14 And Methuselah called his name Noah,
saying, The earth was in his days at rest and free from corruption, and Lamech
his father called his name Menachem, saying, This one shall comfort us in our
works and miserable toil in the earth, which God had cursed. 15 And the child
grew up and was weaned, and he went in the ways of his father Methuselah,
perfect and upright with God. 16 And all the sons of men departed from the
ways of the Lord in those days as they multiplied upon the face of the earth
with sons and daughters, and they taught one another their evil practices and
they continued sinning against the Lord. 17 And every man made unto himself a
god, and they robbed and plundered every man his neighbor as well as his
relative, and they corrupted the earth, and the earth was filled with violence.
18 And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their
wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of
men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and
the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the
other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth
and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and
all animals.
19 And the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the
face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air, together with cattle and
beasts that are in the field for I repent that I made them. 20 And all men who
walked in the ways of the Lord, died in those days, before the Lord brought the
evil upon man which he had declared, for this was from the Lord, that they
should not see the evil which the Lord spoke of concerning the sons of men. 21
And Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord chose him and his
children to raise up seed from them upon the face of the whole earth.
I can't figure out how trustworthy the Book of Jasher is. Hard to tell if some or all of the details are trustworthy. Ken Johnson Th.D has studied these matters a lot and writes lots of books on these topics.

But the Book of Jasher/Jashar IS mentioned by name in the Bible:
“So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.” (Joshua 10:13, NASB95)

“Then David chanted with this lament over Saul and Jonathan his son, and he told them to teach the sons of Judah the bow; behold, it is written in the book of Jashar.” (2 Samuel 1:17–18, NASB95)

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njd83
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Re: The Flood

Post by njd83 » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:34 pm

Jubilees Chapter 7, larger quote:

18 And these are the sons of Shem: Elam, and Asshur, and Arpachshad—this (son) was born two years after the flood—and Lud, and Aram. 19 The sons of Japheth: Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan, Tubal and Meshech and Tiras: these are the sons of Noah. 20 And in the twenty-eighth jubilee Noah began to enjoin upon his sons’ sons the ordinances and commandments, and all the judgments that he knew, and he exhorted his sons to observe righteousness, and to cover the shame of their flesh, and to bless their Creator, and honour father and mother, and love their neighbour, and guard their souls from fornication and uncleanness and all iniquity. 21 For owing to these three things came the flood upon the earth, namely, owing to the fornication wherein the Watchers against the law of their ordinances went a whoring after the daughters of men, and took themselves wives of all which they chose: and they made the beginning of uncleanness. 22 And they begat sons the Nâphîdîm, and †they were all unlike†, and they devoured one another: and the Giants slew the Nâphîl, and the Nâîl slew the Eljô, and the Eljô mankind, and one man another. 23 And every one sold himself to work iniquity and to shed much blood, and the earth was filled with iniquity. 24 And after this they sinned against the beasts and birds, and all that moves and walks on the earth: and much blood was shed on the earth, and every imagination and desire of men imagined vanity and evil continually. 25 And the Lord destroyed everything from off the face of the earth; because of the wickedness of their deeds, and because of the blood which they had shed in the midst of the earth He destroyed everything. 26 ‘And we were left, I and you, my sons, and everything that entered with us into the ark, and behold I see your works before me that ye do not walk in righteousness; for in the path of destruction ye have begun to walk, and ye are parting one from another, and are envious one of another, and (so it comes) that ye are not in harmony, my sons, each with his brother. 27 For I see, and behold the demons have begun (their) seductions against you and against your children, and now I fear on your behalf, that after my death ye will shed the blood of men upon the earth, and that ye, too, will be destroyed from the face of the earth. 28 For whoso sheddeth man’s blood, and whoso eateth the blood of any flesh, shall all be destroyed from the earth.
Last edited by njd83 on Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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njd83
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Re: The Flood

Post by njd83 » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:40 pm

Book of Jubilees - Chapter 10

10.1 And in the third week of this jubilee the unclean demons began to lead astray †the children of† the sons of Noah, and to make to err and destroy them. 2 And the sons of Noah came to Noah their father, and they told him concerning the demons which were leading astray and blinding and slaying his sons’ sons. 3 And he prayed before the Lord his God, and said:

‘God of the spirits of all flesh, who hast shown mercy unto me,
And hast saved me and my sons from the waters of the flood,
And hast not caused me to perish as Thou didst the sons of perdition;

For Thy grace has been great towards me,
And great has been Thy mercy to my soul;

Let Thy grace be lift up upon my sons,
And let not wicked spirits rule over them
Lest they should destroy them from the earth.

4 But do Thou bless me and my sons, that we may increase and multiply and replenish the earth. 5 And Thou knowest how Thy Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, acted in my day: and as for these spirits which are living, imprison them and hold them fast in the place of condemnation, and let them not bring destruction on the sons of thy servant, my God; for these are malignant, and created in order to destroy. 6 And let them not rule over the spirits of the living; for Thou alone canst exercise dominion over them. And let them not have power over the sons of the righteous from henceforth and for evermore.’ 7 And the Lord our God bade us to bind all. 8 And the chief of the spirits, Mastêmâ, came and said: ‘Lord, Creator, let some of them remain before me, and let them hearken to my voice, and do all that I shall say unto them; for if some of them are not left to me, I shall not be able to execute the power of my will on the sons of men; for these are for corruption and leading astray before my judgment, for great is the wickedness of the sons of men.’ 9 And He said: ‘Let the tenth part of them remain before him, and let nine parts descend into the place of condemnation.’ 10 And one of us He commanded that we should teach Noah all their medicines; for He knew that they would not walk in uprightness, nor strive in righteousness. 11 And we did according to all His words: all the malignant evil ones we bound in the place of condemnation and a tenth part of them we left that they might be subject before Satan on the earth. 12 And we explained to Noah all the medicines of their diseases, together with their seductions, how he might heal them with herbs of the earth. 13 And Noah wrote down all things in a book as we instructed him concerning every kind of medicine. Thus the evil spirits were precluded from (hurting) the sons of Noah. 14 And he gave all that he had written to Shem, his eldest son; for he loved him exceedingly above all his sons. 15 And Noah slept with his fathers, and was buried on Mount Lûbâr in the land of Ararat. 16 Nine hundred and fifty years he completed in his life, nineteen jubilees and two weeks and five years. 17 And in his life on earth he excelled the children of men save Enoch because of the righteousness, wherein he was perfect. For Enoch’s office was ordained for a testimony to the generations of the world, so that he should recount all the deeds of generation unto generation, till the day of judgment.

dwight92070
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Re: The Flood

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:58 pm

Regarding Terry Z's first question:
Obviously there are many different opinions among believers, so I might as well throw mine into the hat too. With the prevalence of evil thoughts and violence, it appeared that mankind would just destroy itself soon anyway, only with torture and rape, etc., so in a way God spared them the additional trauma by removing them relatively quickly.

Regarding angels having sex with women, I don't see that happening there. I see the sons of God, meaning otherwise godly men, choosing beautiful ungodly women as wives, without seeking God's approval. The new testament calls that being unequally yoked. When God expresses His grief over this, He says: "My Spirit shall not strive with MAN forever ..." and "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of MAN was great on the earth ..." and "I will blot out MAN ... for I am sorry that I have made them." There's no mention of angels here. If it was angels having sex with women, then why did God only pronounce a judgment on "man" and not also on angels, even as He pronounced judgment on the serpent in the Garden of Eden?

dwight92070
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Re: The Flood

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:17 pm

Mattrose,

I thought your 2 "www" offerings were going to be about Steve Gregg's critique of "the flood was to destroy the half-angels" theory, but instead they both go to your teachings, with no mention of Steve's teaching.

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