Who incited David to number Israel?

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Jepne
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Re: Who incited David to number Israel?

Post by Jepne » Sat May 17, 2014 6:33 pm

Steve, should a wrongful conviction and execution happen to you, although you have lived to a fairly ripe age and seen your children grown, perhaps your family would not take it as easily as you say you would.

Having watched the news of the Rosenberg executions in the 50s as a child, as well as reading in later years about the children they had to leave behind, and having watched the movie of Melville's ''Billy Budd'' in my teen years, capital punishment always seemed particularly mean and awful to me, to think that the country and society you love might see fit to kill you. But I began to truly weep about it when I read some years ago, stories by the families of people whom society thought they should eradicate because of what they had done in the past – no matter if they were penitent, as Karla Faye Tucker certainly was. I will never forget (then) Governor George Bush's words to the effect that the law is the law and must be carried out. Even when a person is guilty of murder, it is incredibly painful for all the families involved, and I fail to see how execution can possibly solve the problem (the man who came and led Karla Faye to the Lord married her in prison, and she was a strong Christian witness).

The names of the executioners are carefully guarded.
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I recently heard on CBC the story of a family in which one son was schizophrenic. His family surrounded him and he was very close to them. Once out on the street, he neglected to take his meds and murdered his mother, which grieved him terribly. No one in the family wanted to see him executed. Of course they thought he should live the rest of his life supervised, but not punished, as so many would like to do.
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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steve
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Re: Who incited David to number Israel?

Post by steve » Sat May 17, 2014 9:45 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:
The fact is that the homocide rate in United States has been greater in the states which have the death penalty than in those who don't have it. And that has been the case EVERY YEAR from 1991 to 2011. Surely this cannot be coincidental.
I am not sure what you are suggesting about it being no coincidence. Are you saying that the allowance of capital punishment for murderers encourages murder? I would like to see that explained. If true, what psychological factors would you think to be responsible for such a reaction to such a penalty?

I do not argue that capital punishment is a deterrent to a man committing his first murder. If carried out promptly, however, it would certainly be a deterrent to his second and subsequent murders—some of which he might even commit in prison, if he is confined there long enough. I said that the death penalty for perjurers would probably reduce the number of people willing to perjure themselves. I know of no statistics about that, since I know of no society that has such a penalty in place.

My support of capital punishment, however, is not owing to any deterrent effect it might have regarding crimes, but because it is justice and it is commanded by God.

To say that it was not commanded by God, and that all that judgment language in both Testaments was written by people who did not really know God as well as you do, leaves you with no reliable Bible, since all the writers worshipped a God of a radically different character than yours—and thought He was speaking to them.

If they were wrong, and you are right, then the mistake they were making was no minor one. Rather, they consistently bore false witness against God Himself, without even knowing how different He is from their libelous notions. Certainly people who are as wrong as this about God cannot be trusted to teach us anything about theology or morality. To take your position consistently, we must distrust the witness of every biblical writer and of Jesus Himself. You have concocted a "Christianity" that has no reliable scriptures.

Think about the list of people you will not be able to trust:

Moses (writer of the Pentateuch),

Joshua and Samuel (the probable authors of Joshua, Judges and Ruth),

The historian who wrote the Books of Samuel,

Jeremiah (who probably wrote the Books of Kings and two prophetic books),

Job (who thought that God took his prosperity, children and health from him, and the anonymous author who agreed with him),

David and Solomon (who wrote Psalms and three other "wisdom" books),

All the prophets (whose messages were primarily about God's judgment activities, followed by His gracioous restoration through the Messiah)

So there were no reliable witnesses for God in the Old Testament, because we have exhausted the list of Old Testament authors, and every one of them believed in a God that you think is monstrous. Worse yet, we have no reliable spokesmen for God in the New Testament either, since all of its authors made the same misjudgment of God that is found in the Old Testament! Who are we thinking of here? Check it out:

Jesus (who clearly believed that there were divine judgments in the days of Noah and Lot, and who repeatedly warned of the wrath of God that was shortly to come on Jerusalem),

Matthew and Mark (who were too dull to recognize the absurdity in recording Jesus' parables and prophecies of judgment along with His words of grace),

Luke (who knew Paul and Paul's theology like you know your own, and yet believed that God's angel struck and killed Herod),

Peter (who believed that the Old Testament prophets never gave their own "private interpretation," but spoke as the Holy Spirit moved them, and who specifically attributed the flood and Sodom's destruction to God's direct action),

Paul (who also believed that all Old Testament scripture was inspired and profitable for Christian instruction and doctrine, and who believed that God would strike some church members with sickness and even death, as a means of disciplining sacrilegious behavior at the Lord's table),

The writer of Hebrews (who believed that the Old Testament stories of God's judgment were confirmation of worse judgments due those who rebel against Christ);

James (who believed that Job's response to his trials—which he attributed to God's taking his family and possessions from him—is a good model for us to emulate when we are going through trials),

John (who wrote Revelation, depicting Jesus as the Lamb judging the enemies of God)

There are no more New Testament writers left for us to respect or trust. If you are right, that you understand God and Jesus better than His own apostles and prophets did, then you have no reliable scriptures. It leaves the reasonable man to wonder why you devote you life to parsing the Greek or the Hebrew texts of writers whose view of God was inferior to you own.

Jepne,

You wrote:
Steve, should a wrongful conviction and execution happen to you, although you have lived to a fairly ripe age and seen your children grown, perhaps your family would not take it as easily as you say you would.


True. The death of a loved one is always hard on people. When my wife was killed by a criminally careless driver, I grieved. If she had been executed by a criminally careless justice system, I would have grieved no more and no less. People die "wrongfully" all the time, and if I died at the hands of an unjust criminal justice system, it would be hard for those who loved me—but no more so than if I were given a life sentence and subsequently died in prison of disease, of an accident, of an assault from a fellow prisoner, of a terrorist bombing or a war—or any other way in which the majority of undeserving people are likely to be taken.

I have always believed that this life itself is unjust, and that we should make every effort to avoid perpetrating injustice insofar as it lies in our power. After all that we have done, however, most of us, like most animals, end up dying tragically and at a time that we and our loved ones would not have preferred. Along with this belief, I have also believed that God is the great Vindicator of all injustices (though not in this world), which is why even the ultimate injustice of Christian martyrdom can be endured with joy.

Those who hold a theology like Paidion's deprive Christian sufferers and innocent victims of the peace that comes—as in Job's (Job 1:21), Joseph's (Gen.50:20), and Jesus' (John 18:11) cases—with knowing that our circumstances are within God's total control, and that He intends to use our sufferings and death for His glory (I would have said He intends to use them for our benefit, which is equally true, but much more self-centered). That God is glorified in the sufferings of a Corrie ten Boom, or a Joni Erickson Tada, or a Richard Wurmbrandt, or a Steve Gregg, is sufficient warrant for God to bring such "blessed" things (Matt.5:4, 10-12) upon us.

The theology that I (and all the writers of the Bible) oppose is that which deprives every suffering Christian of the ability to say with confidence what Job, Joseph, Paul, Peter, John and Jesus all said—as they saw God as the author of their fortunes and their misfortunes, and loved Him for it. Paidion has not said as much, but I get the profound impression that if God is the way He revealed Himself to be through the writings of the apostles and prophets, and through Jesus, this would render Him difficult or impossible to love. Spiritual giants and martyrs throughout history have known God well enough to refute this.

Paul said (referring to the Old Testament scriptures): "For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the Scriptures might have hope." I do not know what comfort, lacking the scriptural assurances that Paidion denounces, anyone can have in the face of life's injustices, sufferings, and death. Thankfully, God has provided reliable scriptures which most Christians believe and, through which believers may have hope in crises, and may glow with confidence in the face of suffering. This is not my theory, it is my testimony.

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Paidion
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Re: Who incited David to number Israel?

Post by Paidion » Sun May 18, 2014 4:14 pm

This is the testimony of the apostle John:
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1John 1:5)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve
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Re: Who incited David to number Israel?

Post by steve » Sun May 18, 2014 5:09 pm

Amen. Not very relevant to our disagreement, though.

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Paidion
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Re: Who incited David to number Israel?

Post by Paidion » Sun May 18, 2014 8:26 pm

Hmmm.... I thought it was quite relevant. The killing of human beings or causing useless, distressful suffering to them would be considered darkness to many if not most people.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Jepne
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Re: Who incited David to number Israel?

Post by Jepne » Sun May 18, 2014 10:58 pm

Steve. Thank you for your reply. I do not see God as the author of evil. Jesus said that it is the devil who comes to steal and destroy. I can't see that wars and rapes etc. are for a greater purpose. They are selfish and destructive and wreak havoc that lasts for generations. The capital punishment put forth in the Old Testament does not carry into the New. As for Romans 13, God may have not stopped Hitler from becoming the ruler of the German people, but every German with a conscience worked against him and his thugs.

In regard to Paidion's statistics concerning murder being more prevalent in states that have capital punishment, a society that condones capital punishment is a mean society and the people living in it would be more prone to violent methods of solving life's problems. I lived in Texas for twelve years. Generally, that society is very punitive, rather than restorative.

I understand enduring injustice at the hands of criminals, drunks, and oppressive governments. Bonhoeffer, Ghandi and Martin Luther King showed man that our lives are not cheap. To stand by and passively allow a corrupt justice system to take the lives of the innocent, saying it is the law, it is God's will, cheapens life.

A disproportionate number of convicted murderers on whom capital punishment is ministered are Black, or other minorities. I have a nephew who lives in the South and is black. One of my closest friends is a descendent of southern slaves.

When injustice is regarded as just a part of life and 'deal with it' is the response of Christians, it conveys the idea that God is punitive and mean. Jesus was never that way, and I seek to have his heart about all matters.

Isaiah 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

Jesus in Luke 4:18 - The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.

Jesus' overturning the tables in the temple was not an effort to harm or punish anyone, and he brought on his own death more swiftly by setting free the woman taken in the capital offence of adultery.

Be blessed.
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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steve
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Re: Who incited David to number Israel?

Post by steve » Mon May 19, 2014 11:29 am

I don't think I am particularly mean, but I believe what God says on the subject of civil justice. When we let our sentiments rule, without the discipline of God's revelation in His Word, we are on precarious moral and spiritual ground.

My post above remains unanswered. Do you have a Bible that can speak authoritatively on any topic? If so, from what is its authority derived, since all of the authors of the Christian Bible, including Jesus, disagreed with your view of God? This is an honest question.

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Homer
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Re: Who incited David to number Israel?

Post by Homer » Tue May 20, 2014 10:07 am

Regarding capital punishment we hear of those condemned to death who are found years later to have been innocent, and this is tragic. And it is used as a potent argument against the death penalty. But what is not often mentioned is the preventative nature of executing a murderer. Recently in the news locally is the case of a man who committed a murder many years ago, served a sentence, and then was set free. He was just convicted of a recent, horrible murder of an innocent young man, killed for the sole purpose of stealing the young man's car to use in a bank robbery. And not only did he murder the young man, in a cruel and painful manner, he coerced a young woman into acting as though she was stranded without a ride home. The young man then drove the young woman to a house which was the murder site. So not only was the young man murdered, the young woman's life is now destroyed.

The Killer has received the death sentence (which the system will probably prevent from ever happening) because the jury reasoned that the man would likely kill some other prisoner.

How things have changed. In the history of our small rural town is the case of a murder committed over 100 years ago. A young man murdered his parents. He was caught fleeing the scene, tried, convicted, and hung within a week. How effective is a death penalty when it is delayed for years?

This is not easy to decide, but for me I think we must defer to God's wisdom.

Seems to me if we can not determine with any certainty what is God's wisdom and what the biblical writers made up we are of all men to be most pitied and our faith is useless.

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Paidion
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Re: Who incited David to number Israel?

Post by Paidion » Tue May 20, 2014 10:32 am

You are right, Homer, that many who have committed a murder will continue to commit murder. This fact was the main reason that I, as a candidate in a federal election in Canada many years ago, spoke for the reinstatement of capital punishment for murder.

But there have been a significant number of people in Canada who have been wrongfully convicted of murder. For that reason, I now believe that no one should receive a death sentence, but if convicted of murder, should receive a life sentence in prison. As Steve pointed out, life imprisonment would be a great injustice to an innocent person, too. But at least it would provide time so that if it should be determined that the convicted man was innocent, he could then be released and have part of his life restored to normal, whereas, if he received the death sentence, there could be no justice and no life for him at all in this world.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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