How was Goliath "killed"?

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steve
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How was Goliath "killed"?

Post by steve » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:54 pm

I received (and answered) the following question in my regular email. I thought it might interest others:


Good morning Steve,I am in a bible study group,and we are currently in 1 Samuel. In chapter 17 vv.50-51 says David killed Goliath with one stone and a sling.In v.51 it says he killed him with the sword and cut off his head.Which method actually killed him, the stone or the sword?People for years have been saying David killed Goliath with a smooth stone what is your take on this? Thank you for your answer. —Marion

Hi Marion,

It really is peculiar that Goliath is said to have been killed both with the stone and with the sword. It may be that he was knocked unconscious (and possibly even killed—no one could tell for sure) by the stone, but that his actual death was known with certainty to the onlooking armies when his head was removed.

If a man were to be mortally injured by falling from a building, and died shortly afterward, in the hospital, due to receiving an inappropriate dosage of anesthesia, we might equally say he was killed by the fall, or he was killed by the overdose. Technically, the overdose was the immediate cause of death, but since he was dying already, due to the fall, we could say the fall killed him.

Goliath's death was probably a process that began with the stone striking him down (from which he would have died anyway) and culminated with his decapitation, so that he was really killed by the series of events that includes both the stone and the sword.

King Saul was mortally wounded in battle. His death was inevitable, but he was dying so slowly that he feared the Philistines would find him alive and torture him. Therefore, he fell on his sword and died more quickly. We could say either that Saul was killed in battle by the Philistines, or else that he committed suicide. Both statements would be, in a sense, true.

It seems as if the wording of 1 Samuel 17:49-51 could be understood similarly.

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Paidion
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Re: How was Goliath "killed"?

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:49 pm

The fact is that verse 50 is not found in the Septuagint. And from my studies, I conclude that the Septuagint, which has been translated from the Egyptian text type manuscripts is more likely to be the original text or close to it. All New Testament quotes of the Old Testament are based on the Septuagint which is a translation into Greek in the third century B.C.

There were two main text types of the Old Testament Scriptures, the Babylonian version, and the Egyptian version. The Babylonian Version is the one which Jerome used to create his Vulgate translation. Augustine, his contemporary, objected to Jerome translating from any Hebrew manuscripts, since the church had right from the beginning always used the Septuagint, indeed ALL of the authors of the books which comprise what is now known as “The New Testament” who quoted the Old Testament, quoted from the Septuagint.

One might think that the ancient Dead Sea scrolls might contain the true Hebrew Scriptures. But unfortunately all of them, except cave 4, contain Hebrew scriptures from Babylonian text type manuscripts. But cave 4 (whose contents were not released for decades) contains Egyptian text type Hebrew manuscripts.

The Babylonian Version diverges widely from the Septuagint in many places, whereas the Egyptian Hebrew version corresponds to the Septuagint as does the New Testament writers quotes from the “Old Testament” scriptures. Let me give you one example:

How many descendants did Jacob have? Look it up in your Bible (any translation) Genesis 46:27 and Exodus 1:5. You find that there were 70. Now look it up in an English translation of the Septuagint. You find there that he had 75 descendants. Unfortunately Genesis 46:27 has not been found in the dead sea scrolls, but Exodus 1:5 was found in cave 4. Guess how many descendants? Yep 75.
Is anything written in the New Testament about this? Yes, indeed. How many descendants of Jacob do you think is recorded in the New Testament? See for yourself:

Acts 7:14 And Joseph sent and called to him Jacob his father and all his kindred, seventy-five souls;

There are many other examples of differences between the two text types.

Our present Old Testaments have been translated from the Masoretic text which is based on the Babylonian text type manuscripts. As I see it, if we want the more original Hebrew we must look at the Hebrew manuscripts found in Cave 4 of the Dead Sea Scrolls—or simply follow the Greek Septuagint translation. The Greek Orthodox Church now has a Bible in which the Old Testament has been translated from the Septuagint.

So I think that verse 50 of 1 Samuel 17 was not in the original autograph. But it was somehow added and thus found its way into the Bablylonian text type manuscripts. Without that verse, there is no contradiction. Goliath was killed with David's sword.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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TK
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Re: How was Goliath "killed"?

Post by TK » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:05 pm

Interesting, Paidion.

It does make better sense if v 50 is excluded.

My guess is that Goliath was still twitching a tad when David cut off his head. He was hurt pretty bad if not already dead- especially since the stone "sunk" into his forehead which I take to mean it stuck. I just googled this and the article says a stone can leave a sling like David used at 60 mph. Pretty nasty.

TK

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