Samson's Philistine Wife and God's Purpose

[TK]

My question revolves around the underlined section of this passage (Judges 14:1-4)

1 Now Samson went down to Timnah, and saw a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines. 2 So he went up and told his father and mother, saying, “I have seen a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines; now therefore, get her for me as a wife.”
3 Then his father and mother said to him, “Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?”
And Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she pleases me well.”
4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD—that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

I am having some difficulty understanding v. 4. It SEEMS to be saying that God was behind Samson's desiring something forbidden, namely a pagan wife. Not only that, it seems to suggest that it was God's INTENTION for Samson to do something forbidden.

I suppose the passage COULD be read to mean that God worked good out of Samson's sinful desire, but that would seem to require an undue twisting of the text.

In the "calling up the dead" thread, RND made the point that God wouldn't use unsavory means to obtain his ends, but I am not sure what to do with this passage.

TK

[Murf]

The whole chapter confuses me. Dead lion, Bees, riddle, betrayal, revenge.

A couple of questions:
Is it even possible for God to do some unsavory? (All men have sinned...)
Are things forbidden to man by God forbidden of God? (Do as I say not as I do)

[mattrose]

It doesn't say that it was God's purpose for them to get married, it says it was God's purpose to find an occasion to move against the Philistines. Samson didn't seem to be against the Philistines. He was wanting, instead, to 'sleep with the enemy.' God used this attraction to create a situation in which Samson grew to detest the enemy Philistines.

Even though verses like 14:15 and 15:1 use the term 'wife', one could argue that the marriage never actually materialized. Samson left during the wedding week in anger. The woman married someone else. He came back thinking he would obtain his wife, but it never happened. And the woman was killed shortly thereafter by her own people.

In short, I think God knew what would happen. He knew it would make Samson angry with the Philistines. And that's what God wanted Samson to be. He wasn't interested in Samson getting married to the woman, he was interested in Samson getting upset with her people.

[mattrose]

The whole chapter confuses me. Dead lion, Bees, riddle, betrayal, revenge.

A couple of questions:
Is it even possible for God to do some unsavory? (All men have sinned...)
Are things forbidden to man by God forbidden of God? (Do as I say not as I do)

I'd answer both questions with a no.

God, by His very nature, can not do something 'unsavory'
But He is not forbidden to do everything that man is forbidden to do
It is wrong for creations to take the life of another created being
But the Creator has every right to the life of His creation.
Or, in another example, it'd be a sin for a mere man to except worship
But it's certainly not a sin for God to do so.

[TK]

matt wrote:

It doesn't say that it was God's purpose for them to get married, it says it was God's purpose to find an occasion to move against the Philistines.

if that is all it said I would agree and the passage wouldnt trouble me. But it also says that "it was of the Lord," which certainly seems to be referring to Samson's desire for the Philistine woman. A plain reading of the passage would lead one to believe that God WANTED Samson to take a Philistine wife in order to create the occasion to move against the Philistines.

TK

[RND]

It doesn't say that it was God's purpose for them to get married, it says it was God's purpose to find an occasion to move against the Philistines. Samson didn't seem to be against the Philistines. He was wanting, instead, to 'sleep with the enemy.' God used this attraction to create a situation in which Samson grew to detest the enemy Philistines.

Even though verses like 14:15 and 15:1 use the term 'wife', one could argue that the marriage never actually materialized. Samson left during the wedding week in anger. The woman married someone else. He came back thinking he would obtain his wife, but it never happened. And the woman was killed shortly thereafter by her own people.

In short, I think God knew what would happen. He knew it would make Samson angry with the Philistines. And that's what God wanted Samson to be. He wasn't interested in Samson getting married to the woman, he was interested in Samson getting upset with her people.

I agree with your summation mattrose. TK, just because God knows 'what' will happen doesn't mean God causes the thing to happen or come to pass.

[mattrose]

matt wrote:

It doesn't say that it was God's purpose for them to get married, it says it was God's purpose to find an occasion to move against the Philistines.

if that is all it said I would agree and the passage wouldnt trouble me. But it also says that "it was of the Lord," which certainly seems to be referring to Samson's desire for the Philistine woman. A plain reading of the passage would lead one to believe that God WANTED Samson to take a Philistine wife in order to create the occasion to move against the Philistines.

TK

I think you're making a leap between your 2nd and 3rd sentences.

In the 2nd sentence, you (I think) correctly state that the "it" refers to Samson's desire (God was willing to use the desire)
But in your 3rd sentence you jump to the idea that God "WANTED" Samson to take a Philistine wife

Isn't it more reasonable to say that God knew that the marriage was never really going to come to fruition and so His intention all along was to use Samson's desires (to sleep with the enemy) to help Samson realize that they were, indeed, the enemy. God, here, was taking a natural desire (attraction to a woman) and using it to bring about His purposes without endorsing the corresponding sin/action (marriage to the woman).

Just my 2 cents. I just finished teaching through Judges and that's what I thought of that particular passage. Tough book!

[Suzana]

I think you're making a leap between your 2nd and 3rd sentences.

In the 2nd sentence, you (I think) correctly state that the "it" refers to Samson's desire (God was willing to use the desire)
But in your 3rd sentence you jump to the idea that God "WANTED" Samson to take a Philistine wife

I agree with this too. And the verse says that the Lord was seeking an occasion, not creating one by inciting Samson to desire the woman. So rather than prevent him or allow Samson's parents to stop him God wanted to use the situation as it was, for His own purposes.
Just my half a cent.

[TK]

I can't really disagree with you Matt- I know it is a matter of interpretation.

here is what matthew henry says:

But this treaty of marriage is expressly said to be of the Lord, v. 4. Not only that God afterwards overruled it to serve his designs against the Philistines, but that he put it into Samson’s heart to make this choice, that he might have occasion against the Philistine. It was not a thing evil in itself for him to marry a Philistine. It was forbidden because of the danger of receiving hurt by idolaters; where there was not only no danger of that kind, but an opportunity hoped for of doing that hurt to them which would be good service to Israel, the law might well be dispense with.

my emphasis

i dont quite get everything he says here, but he does seem to think that God put the idea to go after the philistine woman in samson's head.

TK