Trinity Stuff

Post by **_Les Wright** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:16 am

Paidion,

You assert that some trinitarians are modalists unawares. You say that Jesus is equally God as much as God the Father and that they are two individuals. If words have any precise meaning at all, your words make you a polytheist! Perhaps unaware?

I figured I'd take a leap onto a new thread and see if anybody followed.

Homer - good point. Although Paidion's original point was also good.

I'd be interested in learning/hearing why you, Paidion, accept the early Creed statement about Christ being eternally begotten...

I grew up Anglican and said that thing every week.. in another thread you mentioned it, and I wanted to hear more about it, because that is a part of the Creed that I don't accept.

How I see it, Jesus always existed with the Father. I guess he was known as the 'Word' then according to John. Then, Jesus - the Word - was born about 2000 years ago. Where does the Bible say he was 'eternally begotten' or whatever?

Enquiring minds want to know..

Tx
Les

Post by **_chriscarani** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:57 pm

"Where does the Bible say he was 'eternally begotten' or whatever? "

I may be wrong here but i thing Steve Gregg covers this in his Gospels series volume 1 tape 9 I believe.

Post by **_Steve** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:22 pm

I haven't listened to the tapes recently, but I think I covered that in tape one of the Life of Christ Series.

Post by **_chriscarani** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 am

Your thinking has not failed you, it is tape one, not nine as I had guessed. Thanks Steve

Its about 20 minutes into the tape, just to save you some time of going through it.

Post by **_MightyHalo** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:52 am

Hi everyone,

I believe I would still be called "new" here, its only been like a month or so.

... eventually, I hope to lose that tag-line... ha ha...

I have just been dying to post this question, and find this thread here to be the perfect place for it. (though I have just started listening to Steve's work, which I enjoy thouroughly, I havent listened to Tape 1 yet, which might clear up my question quickly)...

There are many places in the Bible where a certain angel appears. This angel is always titled ... "The Angel of the Lord". A friend of mine once told me that there was a hypothosis (not a theory) that this angel was Jesus before he was born as a man. One of the fascinating events that includes this angel is the fact that normally when people see an angel, they tend to bow to worship them, and the angels normally tell them to get up or not to bow to them. This one angel allows people to bow to him... which is my friends support for his hypothosis.

Has anyone else heard this take on this angel. If so, it might support Les Wright's thinking.

I apologize ahead of time for not having any scripture ready.

Thanks guys,

- Sir Mighty Halo (Brian)

Post by **_chriscarani** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:36 am

Brian,

I think you are talking about Joshua before the fall of Jericho. The "man" titles himslef as the commander of the army of the Lord/lord, and Joshua does bow to him as the text has it, in reverance (NIV) Joshua 5:13.

The SDA and JW believe this is Michael the Archangel and or Jesus before he was born on earth and base their argument largely on this passage.

Miachael was the Arch or commander angel, but there were other instances of the angel of the Lord appearing to people Like in Exodus 3, that do not call themselves commander of the army of angels. They usually are called angel/angels of the Lord. In Revelations there is a specific example in the last chapter of John bowing before an angel and the angel telling him to rise.

I still don't entirely grasp the subject, but these are some verses I have studied.

Post by **_MightyHalo** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:43 am

chriscarani wrote:Brian,

I think you are talking about Joshua before the fall of Jericho. The "man" titles himslef as the commander of the army of the Lord/lord, and Joshua does bow to him as the text has it, in reverance (NIV) Joshua 5:13.

The SDA and JW believe this is Michael the Archangel and or Jesus before he was born on earth and base their argument largely on this passage.

Miachael was the Arch or commander angel, but there were other instances of the angel of the Lord appearing to people Like in Exodus 3, that do not call themselves commander of the army of angels. They usually are called angel/angels of the Lord. In Revelations there is a specific example in the last chapter of John bowing before an angel and the angel telling him to rise.

I still don't entirely grasp the subject, but these are some verses I have studied.

Ahhhh.... thanks for that post. As you can see, Im still learning... so much information available... Im like a kid in a candy store!

- SMH (Brian)

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:25 pm

Yes i think The Angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Christ. He is in the burning bush (Ex 3.4) and tell Moses he is standing on holy ground and speaks to Moses and says "I am your God and of your father and Abraham,Isaac and Jacob." Moses falls down in worship but He is not Yahweh for in Zech 1.12 He petitions Yahweh to have mercy on Jerusalem.
There is a book about the pre-incarnate Christ called "Christ before the Manger" by Ron Rhodes.

Post by **_MightyHalo** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:28 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Yes i think The Angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Christ. He is in the burning bush (Ex 3.4) and tell Moses he is standing on holy ground and speaks to Moses and says "I am your God and of your father and Abraham,Isaac and Jacob." Moses falls down in worship but He is not Yahweh for in Zech 1.12 He petitions Yahweh to have mercy on Jerusalem.
There is a book about the pre-incarnate Christ called "Christ before the Manger" by Ron Rhodes.

Im definitely going to purchase that book! Thanks!

- SMH (Brian)

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:36 pm

Les, there is no "early creedal statement about Christ being eternally begotten." The words of the creed "begotten before all ages" was changed to "eternally begotten" to accomodate the trinitarian doctrine which was being proclaimed. The words "begotten before all ages" occured in the Nicene Creed 325 A.D. Even though this creed was composed after Trinitarianism developed, the words of truth still came through --- probably because of strong tradition. The word that should be translated "ages" was translated in 1549 as "worlds". The King James translators did that also when translating the Bible.

THE NICENE CREED
325 A.D.
ENGLISH VERSION 1549(WITH A FEW MINOR UPDATES)

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of
the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of
Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by
whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came
down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin
Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius
Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the
right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both
the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who
proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son
together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we
believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one
baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the
dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.