The "first death" and the "second death"

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:29 am

There has been some discussion on the second death as described in Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, and 21:8. What is it and what does it mean? Maybe a good way to approach this subject is to first understand what the "first death" is. We do not find any scriptures which describe the "first death" in those exact words, so I am starting this thread to see what some of you think the first death is. Here are some thoughts to get this started.

James 1:13-15
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Here, James explains that death is a consequence of "finished" sin. Is this physical death?...or spiritual death? Is this the "first death?"

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Here Paul describes someone who has not died physically, but who is "dead in sin." This must be describing spiritual death. Is this the "first death?"

Matt 8:21-22
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Here Jesus makes a comment about someone who is living but yet dead. Is this the "first death?"

So, if the first death is spiritual death, then what are it's consequences and how does this relate to the "second death?"

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Todd

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:44 pm

I have always assumed that "the first death" refers to physical death.

In any case, it is clear that "the second death" is the "lake of fire".

...This is the second death, the lake of fire. Rev 20:14

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:24 pm

The word "lake" is the greek word "limen" which comes from Strong's #3040 meaning pond. And it means "a harbor or haven" or the "fair haven" -Strong's greek dictionary pg 151.
So God judges the world in a POND, billions of people in a pond. One charactoristic of a pond is that the shoreline is close and it's calm and secure unlike the sea.
In Acts 27.8 in the KJV the word "limen" has the word "fair" before it as in fair haven or safe harbor.
Hmm the LOF does'nt seem quite so terrifying based on this. God will judge the world in righteousness.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:18 pm

Another verse that talks of being dead before physical death....

Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

We were dead (first death?) in trespasses and sins. Then God quickened us (first resurrection?). See the following verses...

Eph 2:1-7
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

According to these scriptures, the first death is spiritual death brought on everyone as a result of our sin (for all have sinned), the "first resurrection" makes us alive in Christ having been forgiven of our sins.

Now, if this is true, then the second death is not physical death - because those who have part in the first resurrection cannot be affected by the second death (Rev 20:6). And since everyone (both the just and the unjust) are subject to physical death, the second death must refer to something else.

So then, according to this reasoning, physical death is neither the "first death" nor the "second death."

Todd

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:42 pm

The word "lake" is the greek word "limen" which comes from Strong's #3040 meaning pond. And it means "a harbor or haven" or the "fair haven" -Strong's greek dictionary pg 151.
So God judges the world in a POND, billions of people in a pond. One charactoristic of a pond is that the shoreline is close and it's calm and secure unlike the sea.
In Acts 27.8 in the KJV the word "limen" has the word "fair" before it as in fair haven or safe harbor.
Hmm the LOF does'nt seem quite so terrifying based on this.

Of the 10 instances in the New Testament of the Greek word "limnA" (Strong's #3041), five are in Revelation, and used in the expression "Lake of Fire". The other five are all found in Luke: 5:1, 5:2, 8:22, 8:23, and 8:33. In each occurence in Luke, the meaning is clearly "lake".

It is mere speculation that "limnA" is derived from "limAn" (Strongs # 3040), a word that means "harbour" or "haven". The speculation is based on the belief that "limnA" refers to the part of a lake that is near the shore.
But it is uncertain that "limnA" does refer only to that part of the lake.
Perhaps looking at the Luke references would be helpful.

Even if "limnA" were derived from "limAn", that would in no way indicate that "limnA" would itself be a harbour or "safe place".

It would be a serious error to conclude from this that "the Lake of Fire does not seem to be so terrifying" after all.

It seems to be that "the Lake of Fire" is another term for "Gehenna", and that place or condition is one to be feared, according to Jesus.

Matthew 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna.

Matthew 18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the fire that goes from age to age.

I think it is important that we who believe in the reconciliation of all rational beings to God, do not minimize Gehenna (the Lake of Fire). Whether it's a literal place or "merely" a condition, it is horrible!

The fact that all of God's judgments are meant for correction, does not imply that those judgments are not severe. The correction in Gehenna will last for "ages of ages" (millions of years?). Can we even conceive of such a length of time? I wouldn't want to experience The Lake of Fire for 5 minutes ----- let alone for ages of ages.

The minimalization of Gehenna among early Universalists led to the view that God, being wholly love, would automatically let everyone into heaven.
No repentance or life change, or even belief in the existence of God is necessary. I understand this to be the position of the Unitarian-Universalist Association to this day, as well as that of some or many leaders of the United Church of Canada.

This position is a great misunderstanding of the Love of God. His is not a wishy-washy kind of love that smiles benignly on all people no matter how they behave, but a "tough love" ready do what it takes to influence people to come under His authority, to overcome sin and become righteous people who possess love and concern for others.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:52 pm

The fact that all of God's judgments are meant for correction, does not imply that those judgments are not severe. The correction in Gehenna will last for "ages of ages" (millions of years?). Can we even conceive of such a length of time? I wouldn't want to experience The Lake of Fire for 5 minutes ----- let alone for ages of ages.

Ages and ages could mean almost any length of time could'nt it. For example there is the gospel age which is 2,000 plus years, the jewish age 3,500 years or in 2 Cor 4.4 Satan is called "the god of this age" a few thousand years. In biblical terms as far as i know "ages" usually means thousands of years or am i mistaken.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:56 pm

Actually the jewish age from when Moses got the Siniactic covenant to Jesus was only about 1,500 years not 3,500.

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:09 pm

True, we cannot calculate how long "ages of ages" would be. Nevertheless, I will explain why I think it may be millions of years.

Let's assume that ONE age is a thousand years.

Then ONE age of ages, is a thousand thousands, that is, a million years.

Thus "ages of ages" must be at least several million years.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:30 am

True, we cannot calculate how long "ages of ages" would be. Nevertheless, I will explain why I think it may be millions of years.

Let's assume that ONE age is a thousand years.

Then ONE age of ages, is a thousand thousands, that is, a million years.

Thus "ages of ages" must be at least several million years.It's possible "ages of ages" (Rotherham) or "ages upon ages" (Young's) could be millions of years but i don't know if this is a literal multiplying of ages or adding them together or just symbolic for a long period of time. And it is specifying the devil,beast and false prophet being in the LOF for "ages upon ages". Rev does'nt really indicate how long unbelievers are in and it seems to me we simply can't know except that at some time the "Spirit and bride" invite whosoever to drink from the water of life in Rev 22.17 which is after New Jerusalem has come down so i take this as chronological.

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:24 pm

I concede that my method of arriving at "millions of years" may be unwarranted. Nevertheless, I don't think we can conclude that the Lake of Fire experience will be anything other than extremely unpleasant, or painful. We should not minimize that suffering in any way. As our Lord said:

Matthew 18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the fire that goes from age to age.

Matthew 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna