The resurrection - 1 Cor 15

[Guest]

Paul tells us in Acts 24:15 that the resurrection will include both the just and the unjust. He also gives us a little detail and description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15. Does this description apply the same for both the just and the unjust? Why or why not?

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

The resurrection of the just, according to 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, confers upon them eternal glory, incorruptibility, and power—which are especially associated with salvation (see Rom.2:6-7/ 1 Pet.1:4). I think it is safe to say that these features do not accrue to the lost in their resurrection state.

It seems clear, though, that since most dead people will have become thoroughly decomposed by the time of the resurrection, even the lost will have to be "reassembled" or "reconstituted" (I don't know exactly what the best word for this is) in resurrection.

Whether the resurrected bodies of the lost will have a quality of eternal duration (so that they can burn forever in hell, as many expect) or whether they will be capable of being burned up into ashes, is a question that will be answered differently among those who have differing views of hell.

[Guest]

In my humble opinion, I believe that the people who go to hell will still have the adictions, fears, phobias, ETC.. that they had while on earth. My reason is this: In Luke 16 where the rich man went to hell, he was thirsty. He feared for his brothers, he plainly had the capacity to suffer physicly.

Here it is "Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luk 16:26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and {that} none may cross over from there to us.'
Luk 16:27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- "

This may be reading to much into the text, but it seems logical to me. Thanks again Steve for helping me with Acts 2:38 on the show, and 2 Thess 2:4.

[Guest]

Todd,

The resurrection of the just, according to 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, confers upon them eternal glory, incorruptibility, and power—which are especially associated with salvation (see Rom.2:6-7/ 1 Pet.1:4). I think it is safe to say that these features do not accrue to the lost in their resurrection state.

Steve,

I can't seem to find any evidence in the context surrounding 1Cor 15:42-44 to suggest that these verses only apply to the just. In fact, verse 43 says that "it is sown in dishonour," which may imply just the opposite. Also, earlier in the chapter in verse 22 Paul says,

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This verse seems to say that the same "all" that died in Adam shall be made alive in Christ. Which, to me, says that the following discourse on the resurrection applies to the same "all", which is everyone.

Todd

[Guest]

Perhaps, but I could also see verse 22 as saying that all who are in Adam die, and all who are in Christ will be made alive.

As for the reference to dishonor, this is not a reference to sin. It is sometimes the case that Paul and other faithful Christians experienced dishonor in the sight of men (2 Cor.6:8). Paul wrote to the shame of the Corinthians that, vis-a-vis the world, they were viewed as "honorable," while he and the apostles were "despised" (1 Cor.4:10, 14).

Jesus and Peter both said the man was blessed who, for Christ's sake, would suffer such reproach (Matt.5:11/ 1 Pet. 4:14). From the standpoint of the world, the Christian is the biggest loser, and may die poor, out of public favor, abandoned and "of all men most miserable" (1 Cor.15:19). Thus the Christian may, especially in times of persecution (the only kind of times with which Paul was acquainted), a Christian might well be expected to leave this world "in dishonor," looking forward to that better resurrection, wherein he will be "raised in glory."

But Paul needn't have this much in his mind. There is a dishonor to mankind, in general, in the very phenomenon of death. Death is the ultimate scandal. The consequences of sin, which have been forestalled by a brief season of health and verility, finally catch-up to every human being—every coffin is sent out bearing the invisible shipping label reading "sinner—condemned to death." The bravest boaster as well as the lowliest beggar all succumb to that one great indignity.

A famous man (I forget who—death eventually erases the memory even of the famous!) once said, "I am not so much afraid of death as ashamed of it!"

An even more memorable man quipped, "Better is a living dog than a dead lion" (Eccl.9:4). Death robs even the regal lion of its former dignity.

Every corpse, including (if not especially) those of Christians, is engulfed in this indignity, or dishonor, at death. Only the Christians, however, have a clear promise of a resurrection in glory (Rom.2:6-10).

If universalism is true at all, it promises only eventual reconciliation, not glory, to those who die in unbelief.

[Guest]

Paul tells us in Acts 24:15 that the resurrection will include both the just and the unjust. He also gives us a little detail and description of the resurrection in 1 Cor 15. Does this description apply the same for both the just and the unjust? Why or why not?

Todd as you know John 5.28-29 seems to indicate everyone gets resurrected at the same time but that the unjust get resurrected to judgement. Same as Rev 20 seems to indicate that the unbelievers get thrown into the lake of fire which i believe is a metaphor for judgement. So even if the unbelievers are resurrected with a "glorified body" they are still called unjust meaning they are still unredemmed and not fit for heaven. Even unbelievers will not be resurrected with a flesh and blood body.
Rev 20.14-15 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death ,the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
21.1 "Then i saw a new heaven and a new earth ,for the first heaven and the first earth passed away and there is no longer any sea."

So for this new heaven and earth perhaps all people will need glorified bodies even the unjust will need new bodies to exist but that does'nt mean they can enter heaven. Of course i hope that the verses in Rev regarding the gates of the city being open and the Spirit and Bride calling out to the unrepentent are chronological and they can repent after this life. That is my hope and it is what i believe because IMHO it's the only thing that's just and i know God is just.

[Guest]

Steve,

As always, your answers are well reasoned and make sense. But you bring up two scenarios in your first post that I have trouble understanding how either one can be true. You said,....

Whether the resurrected bodies of the lost will have a quality of eternal duration (so that they can burn forever in hell, as many expect) or whether they will be capable of being burned up into ashes, is a question that will be answered differently among those who have differing views of hell.

The first scenario is the traditional view of hell - that those who are not in Christ will suffer eternity in a state of torment. In today's society the world views any country or entity that practices torture as deplorable, and at the same time many believe that God will torture most people forever. Is the creation more merciful than the Creator? Are we not born in the image of God? Did he not teach mercy as a virtue? Our God is a God of love and mercy.

2 Cor 1:3
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

No, our God is not the God of eternal torture, but the God of mercy and comfort. I would think that more people have turned away from Christianity due to this doctrine, than have been "frightened" into discipleship.

The second scenario - that God resurrects the unjust to face judgment and then annihilates them - is more likely than the former, but still has problems in my view. Firstly, what's the point of raising the dead only to destroy them again? Would it not be more merciful just to let death have it's final say? Imagine if modern science found a way to bring Hitler back to life so that he could be executed for his crimes. That makes no sense to me. Also, if the majority of God's creation is destined for annihilation then I can find no place for many scriptures that describe all of God's creation kneeling and singing praises to God and the Lamb. Scriptures such as Rev 5:13 and this one in Isaiah.

Is 45:22-24
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Here it says that "all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed." Could it be possible that in their shame they find mercy instead of annihilation? Would it not make more sense that the unjust are resurrected because of God's mercy. Besides, how can death be destroyed if most of mankind remains forever in the second death?

What makes more sense to me is a third scenario. One in which the unjust are punished in death. While the just find eternal life in the presence of Christ during the age of the Church, the unjust have perished at death (the second death) along with any tribulation and anguish that may accompany it. Therefore, at the resurrection, having been freed from the sinful flesh and all its sinfulness (the old man having been destroyed), even the unjust have a place in the everlasting Kingdom - maybe not as heirs, but one in which they can joyfully kneel and praise the God of all comfort, and the Father of mercies.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

Frankly, I like what you are saying, and you argue it well. I would like to believe it is correct. However, it does not correspond with my present understanding of the scriptures concerning those who rise "to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:29). I find nothing in your vision of universalism that rubs me the wrong way, but I am not yet able to see it as answering all of the available data.

If I understand you correctly, the only judgment the wicked ultimately receive is physical death (and that only until the resurrection), while "the just find eternal life in the presence of Christ during the age of the Church." I was not clear as to whether this life in the presence of Christ refers strictly to the state of blessedness after physical death, or if you are thinking of this present life that we live in Christ (and hence, in His presence).

The main thing that seems philosophically objectionable about this is that, if the only thing different between the fate of the believer and the fate of the unbeliever is what each one experiences between death and the resurrection, then there seems to be no great penalty for one who rejects God in this life and who lives a life of murder, hatred and torturing of innocent victims. The worst that person will experience is physical death (which might be sudden and painless), while the godly saint also experiences death (sometimes protracted and agonizing). Both parties receive the same judgment. If physical death is the whole judgment for sin, then the believer does not escape this judgment any more than does the unbeliever. What, then, is the "wrath to come" from which Jesus saves us (1 Thess.1:10)?

If the answer is that the Christian, though suffering death, afterward has the unique privilege of being with Christ until the resurrection, and that the unbeliever forfeits this privilege, then a number of thoughts come to mind:

1. If the unbeliever is altogether unconscious until the resurrection, then he is in no sense aware of missing out on anything, and the next thing he will consciously know is his resurrection from the dead, after which he also will experience life in the presence of God for eternity. His death and what follows will be no more unpleasant (and may be very much more pleasant) than the death of the righteous.

2. If an unbeliever and a believer happen to die at the same moment, and that moment is two minutes prior to the resurrection (or any other negligible time period before the resureection), then the difference between their rewards will be that the believer got an extra two minutes in the presence of God that the other one missed out on. Essentially, then, there is no distinction in the fates of that particular believer and that particular unbeliever.

Since I would like for all men to be saved, and for no one to suffer even the slightest pain, this would not be a problem to me, but it seems to raise questions about why the scriptures speak so glowingly of the special rerwards of obedience and faithfulness.

3. If we suggest that the primary advantage that the believer, in the previous scenario, experienced over the unbeliever is that the former had the knowledge and comfort of the presence of Christ in his earthly sojourn, while the unbeliever lived in the misery of a godless life, I would be inclined to respond that the unbeliever often has no awareness of being in such misery, and, as David observed in Psalm 73, seems to enjoy this life even more than does the righteous. With Paul, in assessing ours and the unbelievers relative enjoyment of this present life, I would be tempted to say, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

4. Perhaps the difficulty can best be overcome by appeal to the disparity of rewards in the eternal state between the saint and the sinner. We might well feel that the divine justice has been vindicated if no one receieved any post-mortum punishments, but at least Mother Teresa got to rule over India, while Hitler was consigned to cleaning sewers in Poland. There certainly are references to the saints reigning in the next life, and the commonly-ask question "over whom?" may well be answered in the lower classes of souls who neglected "so great salvation," but who are nonetheless permitted to live in our world with us. The sentiments expressed in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus would seem amenable to a scenario where, after the resurrection, Dives was now the beggar at wealthy Lazarus' gate.

It is hard to say. Even this scenario removes all terror from the living of a godless life—a terror that the Bible seems to wish to inculcate—and gives no "place for wrath" to Him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." I do not personally relish the idea of anyone being put to pain, but then, I am not writing my own Bible and must live with the one we have. If "the terror of the Lord," which motivated Paul to risk life and limb in order to reach the lost (2 Cor.5:11), amounts to nothing more than forfeiture of the higher rankings in heaven, I wonder if Paul might not have preferred to stay home. I am not claiming to know, mind you—just musing out loud.

Having said all that, I do love the vision of universalism. By the grace of God, I hold no grudges against those who have despised and injured me, and I would take no pleasure in seeing them punished. If God has even more of this same grace than I have, then it is hard to see why He would not have just the same attitude as this toward His enemies. In fact, we are told that this is precisely His attitude toward His enemies (Matt. 5:44-45/ Rom.5:10/ 2 Cor.5:19).

Also, in favor of your view, is the strange statement of Paul, in Romans 6:7, which, in the Greek, actually reads, "He who has died is justified (or cleared) of sin." I have always wondered about the meaning of that statement, and it sounds similar to your view.

This matter remains very much a mystery to me, and I have no expectations of getting it thoroughly cleared up in this life. I live with the confidence that God is good and knows exactly what is best—and that is exactly what will be revealed in eternity.

[Guest]

Romans 6:
2By no means! We died to sin;
7because anyone who has died (to sin) has been freed from sin.

I don't believe this is a stretch considering the context.

[Guest]

The main thing that seems philosophically objectionable about this is that, if the only thing different between the fate of the believer and the fate of the unbeliever is what each one experiences between death and the resurrection, then there seems to be no great penalty for one who rejects God in this life and who lives a life of murder, hatred and torturing of innocent victims. The worst that person will experience is physical death (which might be sudden and painless), while the godly saint also experiences death (sometimes protracted and agonizing). Both parties receive the same judgment. If physical death is the whole judgment for sin, then the believer does not escape this judgment any more than does the unbeliever. What, then, is the "wrath to come" from which Jesus saves us (1 Thess.1:10)?

Steve,

Again you bring up an excellent point. If my scenario is correct, then what is the difference between the just and the unjust, in this age, at Christ's coming, and after the resurrection? Here are my thoughts.

In this age (the church age) the difference is in what happens at death. For the Christian, though his body dies, his soul lives on (eternal life) in the presence of the resurrected Christ (Phil 1:23). For the unjust, his body dies and his soul dies also (Matt 10:28 ). This is what is meant by "perish" in John 3:16 and "the second death" in Rev 21:8. The substance of what this means is somewhat of a mystery but Paul describes it as "tribulation and anguish" in Rom 2:9.

There is also a more obvious difference at Christ's coming which, as you mention, is referred to "the wrath to come." At His return Christ will execute his judgment on the living who know not God and Obeyed not the Gospel.

1 Thess 2:7-9
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is the same event described by Peter....

2 Pet 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

So, for those who are not in Christ, this will be devastating event as the earth and all it's works are burned up, including themselves.

But for Christians who are alive unto the coming of Christ we have a different description by Paul.

1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the resurrection I believe there will also be a difference between the just and the unjust much like you describe.

4. Perhaps the difficulty can best be overcome by appeal to the disparity of rewards in the eternal state between the saint and the sinner. We might well feel that the divine justice has been vindicated if no one receieved any post-mortum punishments, but at least Mother Teresa got to rule over India, while Hitler was consigned to cleaning sewers in Poland. There certainly are references to the saints reigning in the next life, and the commonly-ask question "over whom?" may well be answered in the lower classes of souls who neglected "so great salvation," but who are nonetheless permitted to live in our world with us. The sentiments expressed in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus would seem amenable to a scenario where, after the resurrection, Dives was now the beggar at wealthy Lazarus' gate.

I could very well be that when Jesus describes the resurrection in two ways - "the resurrection of Life" and "the resurrection of condemnation" in John 5:28-29 - he is merely pointing out the there is a difference similar to your description which I have just quoted.

Anyway, these are my thoughts as it stands now, but I will continue to study and meditate on it. And I do sincerely appreciate your input (and everyone else's too). God Bless you all.

Todd