How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:04 am

If the word "foods" in verse 3 includes animals that have been designated as unclean, then we have Paul basically calling all of Leviticus 11 "doctrines of demons" (1 Tim. 4:1), because that chapter has God commanding that unclean animals should not be eaten. So we know that that interpretation cannot be correct, because God does not give us, or the Jews, doctrines of demons. Therefore the word "foods" must refer to only clean animals (as well as edible plants and fruits).

This would agree with the Jewish concept that unclean animals are not even considered to be foods - only clean animals are food (again, as well as edible plants and fruits).

dizerner

Re: How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Post by dizerner » Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:18 am

Your logic is incorrect.

If God commands something to a specific people at a specific time, this is not a universal command.

For us to try to follow the Jewish Law, when God specifically commands us not to, and tells us that it was a shadow that symbolized New Covenant truths, is disobedience for us, even though it would have been obedience for the Jews.

Disobedience is always demonic.

dizerner

Re: How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Post by dizerner » Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:23 am

Just to give a Biblical example to back up my point, God had previously commanded Israel to conquer Canaan, but when they believed the bad report, they were disciplined. Then they decided to obey the original command from God on their own terms:

41 "Then you answered and said to me,`We have sinned against the LORD; we will go up and fight, just as the LORD our God commanded us.' And when everyone of you had girded on his weapons of war, you were ready to go up into the mountain.
42 "And the LORD said to me,`Tell them, "Do not go up nor fight, for I am not among you; lest you be defeated before your enemies."'
43 "So I spoke to you; yet you would not listen, but rebelled against the command of the LORD, and presumptuously went up into the mountain.
44 "And the Amorites who dwelt in that mountain came out against you and chased you as bees do, and drove you back from Seir to Hormah.
45 "Then you returned and wept before the LORD, but the LORD would not listen to your voice nor give ear to you. (Deut. 1:41-45 NKJ)

God had indeed commanded them to conquer Canaan.

But they wanted to do it all of the time, to claim his command always applied even when he changed it.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:25 am

Therefore, the words "Thus He declared all FOODS clean" in Mark 7:19, cannot mean that He declared all unclean animals clean, because unclean animals are not foods.

My understanding is that He's declaring that it's okay to eat all clean animals, because some refused to eat meat, even the meat of a clean animal. They were vegetarians.

I don't think Jesus or Paul would say that being a vegetarian is following a doctrine of demons, unless they make it a requirement for all people, or if they feel that it's a sin to eat meat.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:40 am

Thanks for your input, Dizerner. Very good points. But what do we do with the fact that the "clean and unclean animal" designation precedes the Law of Moses. It was mentioned during Noah's time and I believe even right after the fall, because can you imagine Abel offering a pig to God?

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:46 pm

dizerner wrote:
Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:18 am
Your logic is incorrect.

If God commands something to a specific people at a specific time, this is not a universal command.

For us to try to follow the Jewish Law, when God specifically commands us not to, and tells us that it was a shadow that symbolized New Covenant truths, is disobedience for us, even though it would have been obedience for the Jews.

Disobedience is always demonic.

Dwight- Dizerner, once again, I appreciate your comments and agree 100% that we, as followers of Christ, are not called to follow the law of Moses. We are and can ONLY be saved by His grace through our faith. Nor do we live our Christian life by following the Law of Moses, but by faith. Also, I do not want this topic to lead to a heated argument - but hope that we could have a further discussion, because I have wondered about this issue for years. Don't misunderstand, I am not obsessed with the issue - mostly curious and yet I would like to come to an understanding of it. Maybe I never will until I see Jesus - that's fine. I'll admit that I could be wrong, but my current understanding of it serves to keep me from being perplexed by the issue. If I am wrong, then I'll go back to being perplexed - so be it. So, with that being said, please allow me to extend this discussion a little further.

Dwight- There are MANY scriptures that relate to this issue, so even if I wanted to avoid it, I couldn't. From Abel offering a sacrifice that was pleasing to God, to Noah taking both clean and unclean animals aboard the ark, and then offering only clean animals as a sacrifice to God, after the flood. Then God tells Noah what their new diet will be, after the flood. Then Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, offer sacrifices to God, and I'm sure their descendants did the same all the way to Moses time, when the law was given, with instructions about clean and unclean animals, and how their diet, besides the fruit and plants, should only be clean animals. Of course sacrifices continued with the tabernacle and later the temple, ALL pointing to the ultimate sacrifice, by which we are saved,Jesus, on the cross.

Dwight - Then the New Testament quotes Mark saying, "Thus He declared all foods clean." Mark 7:1-23 Jesus said that eggs and fish, were good food to give to our children as opposed to rocks, snakes, and scorpions. He also said that fisherman regularly throw away bad fish - Matthew 13 Also Luke 11:41; Titus 1:15; Peter has a vision in Acts 10:9-29, which obviously relates to this topic. Paul devotes all of Romans 14 to the topic, or at least a related topic. Paul refers to it in 1 Tim.4:1-5; Col. 2:16, 20-23; and 1 Corinthians 6:12-13. Revelation even refers to it - "and nothing unclean ... shall ever come into it ..." chapter 21, verse 27.

Dwight - The Law commands the Jews to not make any marks, cuts, or tattoos on their bodies. Although I don't have any of those, when I was younger, even as a new believer, I could easily have decided to get a tattoo, but when I read this from the Law (because I was reading through the whole Bible), I decided that I would never do that. Was I following the Jewish Law? In a way, yes, so was I being disobedient to God by "obeying" His Law to the Jews? I don't think so, I just recognized that any commandment that God gave to the Jews, was GOOD and that He gave it to them for a GOOD reason. It's like saying that "You shall not commit adultery" is a still a GOOD commandment, even though we are not under the Law. "You shall not steal" is still a GOOD commandment, even though we are not under the Law. Even Paul said that the Law was GOOD, and righteous and holy. Romans 7:12 but we are not under it, we are not bound to it. But we can GLEAN WISDOM FROM IT. Paul did. Even today, as hopefully a more mature Christian, I see a tattoo, or cuts or marks on the body as a bad thing. Does this automatically mean that that person is bad? Of course not. However, IMO tattoos degrade our bodies and do not bring glory to God. For a Christian to get a tattoo with a Christian message is a contradiction to me. When the mind of God is clearly revealed on that matter, yes FROM THE LAW, why would a Christian go against that? What if a Christian refuses to get a tattoo because of what the Law says? Is he disobeying Christ by obeying the Law? No, unless he refuses a tattoo in order to be saved? What about tattooed people who get saved? Well, if they can't remove them, then I'm sure God isn't holding that against them. What if they can remove them, but choose not to? God's their judge, not me. However, even the Law allowed pierced ears (and maybe noses?) for certain reasons.

Dwight - Likewise, God commanded the Jews to not eat unclean animals. I try to follow God's command here, even though I am not a Jew, not to be saved, or to stay saved, but because God knows what He is talking about. He called unclean animals detestable, and abhorrent, and said that this law was to make a distinction between the unclean and the clean, and between the edible creature, and the creature which was not to be eaten. And yes, He also said that they would make themselves unclean by eating unclean animals. Does that mean spiritually unclean or physically unclean or both? I DON'T KNOW. Did the whole category of clean and unclean animals just disappear under the new covenant? I DON'T KNOW for sure, but it appears to me to still be around. Did God make ALL animals clean, because of Peter's vision? Well, if that was God's message, Peter missed it. He took it to mean that God had cleansed the Gentiles, along with the Jews.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Post by Homer » Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:48 pm

Dwight,

Consider the passage in Acts 10. If some foods are considered unclean then how are the gentiles (us) not also unclean?

From Acts 10

1. Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius (a gentile), a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2. a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3. About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” 4. And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5. Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; 6. he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.” 7. When the angel who was speaking to him had left, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were his personal attendants, 8. and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.

9. On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10. But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11. and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12. and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13. A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14. But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15. Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16. This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

17. Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon’s house, appeared at the gate; 18. and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. 19 While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20. But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself.” 21. Peter went down to the men and said, “Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?” 22. They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear ]a message from you.” 23. So he invited them in and gave them lodging.

And on the next day he got up and went away with them, and some of the brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24. On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25. When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26. But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27. As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled. 28. And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29. That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me.”

30 Cornelius said, “Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the [v]ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments, 31 and he *said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your [w]alms have been remembered before God. 32 Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you immediately, and you have [x]been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”


Peter clearly saw , in his vision, animals that to his Jewish thinking, were unclean. If it is not true that Jesus has declared all foods clean then it is not true that all salvific distinctions between Jews and Gentiles have been abolished. What then is the point? How did God show Peter that the gentiles were clean if some foods were to be regarded as unclean?

Are we to interpret the New Testament by the OT? I think we interpret the OT by the New Testament.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:14 am

Homer wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:48 pm
Dwight,

Consider the passage in Acts 10. If some foods are considered unclean then how are the gentiles (us) not also unclean?

From Acts 10

1. Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius (a gentile), a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2. a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3. About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” 4. And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5. Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; 6. he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.” 7. When the angel who was speaking to him had left, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were his personal attendants, 8. and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.

9. On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10. But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11. and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12. and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13. A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14. But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15. Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16. This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

17. Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon’s house, appeared at the gate; 18. and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. 19 While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20. But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself.” 21. Peter went down to the men and said, “Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?” 22. They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear ]a message from you.” 23. So he invited them in and gave them lodging.

And on the next day he got up and went away with them, and some of the brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24. On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25. When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26. But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” 27. As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled. 28. And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29. That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me.”

30 Cornelius said, “Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the [v]ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments, 31 and he *said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your [w]alms have been remembered before God. 32 Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you immediately, and you have [x]been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”


Peter clearly saw , in his vision, animals that to his Jewish thinking, were unclean. If it is not true that Jesus has declared all foods clean then it is not true that all salvific distinctions between Jews and Gentiles have been abolished. What then is the point? How did God show Peter that the gentiles were clean if some foods were to be regarded as unclean?

Dwight - We are told nowhere in the New Testament that a prerequisite for God to call the Gentiles to salvation, was that He must first declare all animals clean. Peter interpreted the dream symbolically, NOT literally. The unclean animals in the dream symbolized the Gentiles, and God cleansing them in the dream, symbolized God now opening up the doors for the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles. If God literally declared all unclean animals clean, both in Peter's dream and also in Mark 7, then why did Jesus call a scorpion and a snake a BAD choice of food for their children? If all animals were clean, then those animals would be just as good as beef, or chicken, or lamb, or any other clean food.

Are we to interpret the New Testament by the OT? I think we interpret the OT by the New Testament.

Dwight - Okay then, without using the Old Testament, what is the New Testament meaning or interpretation of the word "foods"?

dizerner

Re: How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Post by dizerner » Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:21 am

You're building way too much from Jesus calling a scorpion and snake bad food. He wasn't talking about their meat.

Both those animals are venomous animals. Christ did not say "Don't give your child a dead, cooked snake with spices and a side dish."

Christ is talking about giving them animals that will hurt them.

I would recommend prayer to expose a legalistic spirit, as long as this thing is influencing you, you will always interpret passages of grace in a legalistic way.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: How do we understand 1 Timothy 4:1-5?

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:37 am

Actually, what I'm pointing out is some inconsistencies with the usual way of interpreting this. Why does that make me legalistic? Jesus' words are very clear. A loaf of bread, a fish, and eggs are good food. A stone, a scorpion, and a snake are not food at all. No mention is made of the animals being venomous, many snakes are not, so to add that to the mix sounds legalistic to me.

Post Reply

Return to “Miscellaneous”