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Are prophets for today (five fold ministry)?

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:31 pm
by _Sam McNear
Eph. 4:11-13 says
"And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; "


The Bible Answer Man said today that prophets are not for today becuase the day of the prophet is over. I don't agree with him but I may not have enough understanding. i have personal experiences of a word coming true from a "prophet" that came to my church. anyone have any solid answers on this? :?

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:20 pm
by _mattrose
I think Hank was saying there are no capital P Prophets today

In other words, no modern day prophet is worthy of having their teachings included in Scripture. The problem with some modern day 'prophets' is that they claim their words are infallible. Sometimes, though, it seems there words are in stark contrast to the words of Scripture.

I think most would agree the gift of prophecy is still in use today, although there are some who disagree I guess.

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:31 pm
by _Christopher
The Bible Answer Man said today that prophets are not for today becuase the day of the prophet is over.
Hi Sam,

I can't speak for Hank and this is just a guess, but I'm betting what Hank meant was that the office of prophet is over, and not that prophesies don't happen ever today at all. I would tend to agree with this notion. We don't need "official" prophets today as they did before Jesus' time because we now have the Holy Spirit within us to convict us and lead us to righteousness (John 14:16-17, Phil 2:13). We also have the "law of God" written in our hearts as a result of the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-33).

But I've never been able to understand why some people think that God can't speak through people today if He wishes to. Why would He suddenly be silent? However, I do understand why people would be skeptical about it because there are a lot of abuses and false manifestations of the "gifts" in the church today, as we all know.

I don't listen to Hank very often anymore (only from lack of time and opportunity), but I used to. From what I do know about him, that seems to be more in-line with what he believes. I could be wrong though. If you can get through, it might be worth calling him about.

God bless.

Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:07 am
by _STEVE7150
I do listen to BAM and i think he has said that God does speak to people in different ways but you have to test all things against scripture. Also i think HH has said a prophet can "forthtell" but not "foretell" the future in today's times. That i believe is his opinion which may or may not be correct.

Fort and Forth telling

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:21 am
by _Sam McNear
Not sure I understand fort & forth telling but I have had several "prophets" tell me of something that would be in the future and it came true. The prophets I'm talking about have never been wrong. I hold prophets I listen to to the same standard as in the old testament. Must be 100% right. Why can't there be prophets today? I see nothing in scripture saying there will be no more prophets.

Fort and Forth telling

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:22 am
by _Sam McNear
Not sure I understand fort & forth telling but I have had several "prophets" tell me of something that would be in the future and it came true. The prophets I'm talking about have never been wrong. I hold prophets I listen to to the same standard as in the old testament. Must be 100% right. Why can't there be prophets today? I see nothing in scripture saying there will be no more prophets.

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:22 am
by _Steve
Hi Sam,

There is no scripture suggesting that the prophetic office or function would necessarily cease prior to the second coming. Some use the verse in Daniel 9:24 that says that one of the things accomplished by the Messiah in the seventy-weeks would be to "seal up vision and prophecy." I personally believe the seventy weeks have been fulfilled, so this "sealing up" must have taken place...but what does this expression mean?

Some think it means to bring an end to prophetic activity and the prophetic office. I think it more likely that it simply means the Messiah would put God's seal of completion, or fulfillment, on the Old Testament prophecies concerning Him, the fall of the temple order and its replacement by the New Covenant order. This would agree with Jesus' statement that the invasion of Jerusalem must occur (in AD 70) so that "all things that are written might be fulfilled" (Luke 21:22).

Some would say (and I might be among them) that the prophetic and apostolic "offices"—mentioned in Ephesians 4:11—have passed, while the offices of evangelists, pastors and teachers—mentioned in the same verse—remain. This opinion is based upon Ephesians 2:20, where Paul says that the church is built on "the foundation of the apostles and prophets."

The argument here is that, in the early days, when the church's foundation was being laid, it was the apostles and prophets that God used to lay that foundation. They wrote the scriptures. But now that they have laid that foundation, it remains for evangelists, pastors and teachers to build on that foundation for the remainder of the Christian era.

I think this could be true, though no direct scripture predicts the withdrawal of the founding offices. It seems that all missionary and church-building work can be done by evangelists and shepherd-teachers, and no further scriptures need be written.

But, to my mind, this does not address the question of the genuine gift of prophecy continuing to the present, since the uttering of a prophetic message does not constitute a person as a prophet. The latter is an office, while the former is an action. Caiaphas and King Saul did not hold prophetic offices, but the Bible speaks of both of them prophesying (John 11:51 / 1 Sam.19:23-24). Paul said to the church—"desire...that you may prophesy" (1 Cor.14:1, 39), and "you may all prophesy, one by one" (1 Cor.14:31), but when he said, "Are all prophets?" (1 Cor.12:29), the implied answer is "no." All may prophesy, but that does not make them prophets.

Paul says that prophecies "shall fail"—probably meaning they will eventually cease—but this will not be until "that which is perfect has come," at which time, we "shall know even as we are known" and we see Jesus "face-to-face" (1 Cor.13:8, 10, 12).

I think the difference between "foretelling" (as an activity of Old Testament prophets) and "forthtelling" (as the restricted province of New Testament prophecy) is artificial. Old Testament prophets did both activities (probably doing even more "forthtelling" than "foretelling"), and the only New Testament "prophets" for whom we have any documented specimens of their prophecies were Agabus and John, the Revelator. In both cases, the specimens that have been preserved for us are primarily of a "foretelling" nature (Acts 11:28; 21:10-11/ The Book of Revelation).

It would appear that "foretelling" and "forthtelling" are both valid aspects of biblical prophecy, regardless which Testament we are looking at.

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:25 am
by _Paidion
Let's carefully consider the scripture that Sam originally quoted:

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ...

Let's see.... these five gifts of ministers, offices, whatever we want to call them ,are given for the building of the Body of Christ UNTIL we all come to the unity of the faith. It seems to me that Christianity is much more divided now, than it was in the day that the apostle spoke these words.

Have we come to a unity of the knowledge of the Son of God yet? No. There is a variety of beliefs concerning His deity, whether or not He is part of a Trinity, whether He was begotten at the beginning of time as an act of the Father, or whether He has always been undergoing an "eternal begetting", whether or not He is always "meek and mild" or whether He sometimes expresses hot anger, etc., etc.

Have we come to a "perfect man". How we been completed yet as disciples of Christ? Are we consistent overcomers? Or do we believe that "all people practice sin every day of their lives"?

Have we arrived at the stature of Christ? Have we achieved (through His enablement) the fullness of Christ in every way?---- so that we are truly Christians (little Christs)?

If not, then according to this scripture, the five-fold ministry continues (wherever it truly operates under the authority of God).

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:19 pm
by _Steve
Hi Paidion,

I have no internal resistance to accepting the continuance of the "five-fold ministry" to the present time. Nothing could please me more, in fact, than to be in the presence of genuine prophets of the sort I read about in scripture. If they are still with us, may their tribe increase.

I think, however, that the wording of the Ephesians passage is capable of more than one possible interpretation. Clearly, something is said to continue until we all come to a perfect man, in the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, and I agree that that goal is yet to be realized in the future.

But what is it that Paul says must continue until that goal is reached? Is it the presence of all five categories of leadership, listed in verse 11, or is it the process described in verse 12, which might be continued (conceivably) even if one or two of the offices originally given were discontinued?

Here is what Paul affirms:

After His ascension, Christ gave the church gifted men, including apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (Eph.4:11). This is historically indisputable.

Why did he give such gifts as these to the church? It was "for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph.4:12).

And how long must the work of the saints' ministry continue to edify the body of Christ? "Until we all come, in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man..." (Eph.4:13).

Following this train of though backward, we see that the church must reach maturity in unity. How so? Through the ongoing ministry of the saints and the building up of the body. How are the saints equipped to perform such ministry? Through the aid of men with special callings who provide this equipping. What kind of special men? Well, several kinds, including (originally) apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

What if a couple of these types of men were provided primarily to spearhead the work, and to leave the continuance of it to the evangelists, pastors and teachers (as Jesus left His work to the apostles)...would this prevent the work from going on and the movement from reaching stated goal? Hard to say. Not obviously.

That is, if the original apostles and prophets were given to lay the foundation of the work (Eph.2:20), and to leave the completion of the building for others to "build upon it" (1 Cor.3:10), would the evangelists, pastors and teachers not be adequate to carry on the work left in their hands? Only if the apostles and prophets performed tasks that others could not do.

Since anyone might prophesy, the vanishing of the prophetic office would not deprive the work of the continuing revelatory guidance of Christ through the prophetic Spirit. The Spirit can speak through a child, a donkey, or even a stone, if He wishes. What is so indispensable about the officer called "the prophet"?

Did apostles evangelize frontier territories? Well, that can be done by evangelists (as Philip the evangelist did, in Acts 8).

Did the apostles disciple the new converts? That's what pastors and teachers are for, isn't it?

Did apostles work miracles and healings? Well, those gifts are still in the list of gifts and among the things that may be performed by "the elders of the church," i.e. pastors (James 5:14), by evangelists, like Philip (Acts 8:5-6), or even simply by "those who believe" (Mark 16:17-18).

What, then, was the distinctive value of apostles and prophets? Was it not to found in their special rank and authority, rather than any distinctive function? Was it not to provide infallible norms, and to write the inspired writings for the new movement? This being done, what is left for modern apostles and prophets to do that cannot be done by believers in other roles?

These are questions to which I do not know the answers. I have no reason to wish for the cessation of apostolic and prophetic offices. I simply am not sure that the Bible suggests that these two offices would necessarily remain after they have served their distinctive purposes. The church is not deprived of their services. Their ministries and authoritative decisions have been preserved in their writings, and they are still among us.

Also, to be quite frank, I am perplexed, if such offices really do exist, why is it that, after 35 years in charismatic circles, I have never run across a genuine apostle or prophet? Where is God hiding them? And why?

In my travels around the world, I have encountered numberless leaders who call themselves apostles or prophets, but none yet who measure up to scriptural standards for such offices. We are told that many false prophets have gone out into the world, and they do not seem hard to locate! Where is God hiding the REAL prophets? We are urged to test any alleged prophet (1 John 4:1ff) and the church of Ephesus was commended for testing alleged apostles (Rev.2:2). After a third of a century of perfoming such tests, and finding none who pass, it begins to look like those people could be right who think that these two offices were only around in the beginning.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

Prophets & average Christians prophesying?

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:08 pm
by _Sam McNear
:? A few questions to clearify some thing for me.

What is the difference between a Prophet who prophesies and an average Christian who God uses to prophesy?
Are they not the same thing?
What more did a prophet do that an average Christian who God uses to prophesy can't do today?

Also if there are no more prophets then what are those who prophesy allowed to biblically prophesy? Can God use them to tell you what is in your future? Or would God only use them to uplift or edify the church?

Sorry for all the question but once I find something that I'm not clear on I love to dig! :D