Book of Life?

[Guest]

Can the passages describing the Book of Life in Scripture be interpreted to mean that everyone throughout time has had their name in the Book of Life? as Christ has died for all. But that those that who have committed the unpardonable sin or that of unbelief, as I understand it, has had their names then blotted out of the Book of Life (all of this being done before the world began according to God’s foreknowledge). So that it’s not a matter of once your are saved having your name then written in the Book of Life and if you blow it that your name can than be blotted out. Any thoughts on this?

Erich <><

[Guest]

Hi Erich,

Your question brings up more than one controversial issue (Calvinism/Armenianism, Eternal Security, infant salvation, the unpardonable sin, etc.)

you wrote:

Can the passages describing the Book of Life in Scripture be interpreted to mean that everyone throughout time has had their name in the Book of Life?

I guess in some sense you could say that if you believe that all people are under a bubble of grace so to speak until they reach an "age of accountability" (which is not explicitly indicated in scripture, but I tend to agree with).

you wrote:

But that those that who have committed the unpardonable sin or that of unbelief, as I understand it, has had their names then blotted out of the Book of Life (all of this being done before the world began according to God’s foreknowledge).

I believe that the Book of Life is merely a metaphorical way of saying that God knows who are His, just as if He writes our names in the white pages. The passages in Revelation you're referring to (Rev 3:5, 22:19) I believe are actually addressed to born again Christians exhorting them to remain faithful to Christ to death. Jesus said:

John 12:25
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
NKJV

Which brings us to the eternal security issue. I believe these passages actually indicate that a believers eternal security is indeed conditional. Why would Jesus give us this warning if the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" were true?

you wrote:

So that it’s not a matter of once your are saved having your name then written in the Book of Life and if you blow it that your name can than be blotted out.

It's not a matter of "blowing it". It's a matter of abiding in Christ. Most of us blow it daily (or several times daily). But:

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

It's a "just" thing for the Father to forgive our sins if we confess them. Not that He owes it to us, but that He owes it to Jesus for paying the price for those sins. And we can count on Him being faithful to keep His end of the bargain. If we are in Christ, those times we "blow it" are covered by the blood of Jesus as long as we are sincerely repentent and remain in Him (John 15). However, if we choose to be lord of our own lives, we are no longer abiding in Jesus and He is no longer our salvation. If we no longer treat Him as Lord of our lives, then we, in essence, blot our own name out of the Book of Life.

I think most evangelicals believe in "once saved, always saved" (including just about everyone in my church). I think there are a lot of backsliders fooling themselves and doing their own thing, counting on this to be true. I believed it until fairly recently because I was taught it. However, I listened to Steve's debate on this subject and began to change my mind. There are just too many scriptures that explicitly teach against unconditional eternal security (Gal 5:4, Heb 2:1, 6:4, 10:26, 10:36-39, Rom 11:20-21, 1 Tim 4:1, 5:15, 2 Tim 2:11-13 and many more) and the passages that seem to teach otherwise are typically speaking of the impossibility of external sources separating us from God.

The apostle John says:

1 John 5:11-13
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
NKJV

Eternal life is in Christ, but we can remove ourselves from that life if we don't abide.

If you haven't listened to it, I would download this debate and listen to it. It's probably the best I've ever heard on this subject.

God bless.

[Guest]

Christopher,

I agree that my question brings up a lot of other issues which could be a reason why no one wanted to respond to it but I’m very grateful that you took the time to give me your thoughts on it.

I too lean towards the idea that our salvation is conditional as you pointed out but there is something I struggle with in regards to this and maybe you can help me with this (or Steve if he reads this). If an individual at one point in their life is abiding in Christ to where if they were to die they would go to heaven but then say that same individual later decides to no longer abide in Him to where if they than died they would go to hell. If this is true and God is a God, according to Scripture, who desires no one to be lost but that all would be saved then why would God allow that individual to live long enough to reject Him? If that person was truly saved at one point and God knew that person would reject Him in the future why wouldn’t he just allow that person to die before reaching that state of apostasy? Because isn’t it God who ultimately decides or knows when we are to die? Why not make so that it is when someone is still abiding in Him as opposed to not?

Stuck on this thought I began to think what determines, in the end, our salvation? Is it where we are at, at any given minute in time, whether in or out of Christ? Or is it more of where we stand at the point of death? By this I mean it would seem to me that it could be that it’s not a matter of someone being able to walk in or out of salvation but more of how that person ends up at the point of their death weather they really were a Christian or not? For example what if a person who appeared to be abiding in Christ and saved later walked away from Christ? I wouldn’t say that they were saved at one point and lost later but that they were never saved or a true Christian to begin with and would fall under the category of the person Jesus address in Matthew 7:21-23. For example, Judas; could someone like Judas today be said to have been a true Christian at one point but fell away later? I would say he was never a Christian but simply had an appearance of it.

It would seem to me that God knows who are His before they ever existed and is not writing someone’s name in the Book of Life than blotting it out than writing it in again (metaphorically) but that all were justified by Christ work on the cross and those who God knows will reject Him have had their names blotted from the “Book” but those who abide and trust in Christ remain in the “Book”. It’s all a done deal already and only He knows who are truly his in the end. This is still very much an open issue for me and I welcome any input.

Erich <><

[Guest]

Erich,

You raise some good points and I'd like to give it a proper biblical treatment, but I've only got 2 minutes here. Maybe Steve or someone else will beat me to it and that's quite alright with me. I'll try to come back later tonight and edit this post. But I'd just like to address one of the points you made.

you wrote:

If that person was truly saved at one point and God knew that person would reject Him in the future why wouldn’t he just allow that person to die before reaching that state of apostasy?

If we follow this reasoning to it's logical conclusion, we would have God making sure that everyone dies as a child prior to them ever reaching the age of accountability.

There's much more to be said, but I'll have to come back.

God bless.

[Guest]

Christopher,

You wrote:
“If we follow this reasoning to it's logical conclusion, we would have God making sure that everyone dies as a child prior to them ever reaching the age of accountability.”

That’s a good point except that if God did do this than no one would ever have the chance to choose differently since the age of accountability is in regards to an individual/child prior to being able to make a decision either for or against Christ which would go against the very reason God made us and why we even go through this life, in my opinion. In the problem or question that I pose I’m looking at someone who has made a decision for Christ. Therefore I don't know that the objection to this in regards to carrying the idea back to the age of accountability would work. What I’m having a hard time grasping is the idea that God who wants all to be saved would not take someone at the point that, that person chooses Christ if He knows that, that same person will later turn away and end up in hell. Why would God allow someone to die and go to hell when either ten years or ten minutes earlier when they were abiding in Christ He could have allowed them to die and have gone to heaven?

Also if I may add something I forgot to mention. In my last post I mentioned the text Matthew 7:21-23; what I forgot to add was that in this passage Jesus makes it clear that God in verse 23 says to these people that he "never knew them". It seems to me, at least in this passage, that if a person was a Christian at one point in their life and not at another that God doesn’t seem to acknowledge the distinction between the two but simply denies ever knowing that individual all together.

I look forward Christopher (or anyone else) to any additional input on this topic.

Erich <><

[Guest]

Hello again Erich,

God is indeed not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9, 1 Tim 2:3-4). However, the Bible indicates that God does not always get what He wants. In His Sovereign will, He purposes not to trample on the free will of man, and leaves that decision to each individual to make for him or herself. The bible, in many places, supports this idea of man's freedom to choose God (Gen 4:6-8, Deut 30:19, Josh 24:15-16, etc.).

I think the parable of the sower gives us a good illustration for this topic (Matt 13, Mark 4, and Luke 8 ). We see a picture of the variety of the type of people in the church. I believe this parable in at least 3 of the 4 cases is speaking about people who are believers at some point. However, we see that the committment to make Jesus Lord of their lives, has conditions for some (or most) of them. God is looking for a good crop of people who love Him wholeheartedly with no other Gods before Him (Ex 20:3). Not even their own lives. How many of us are willing to be poured out as a drink offering for Christ (2 Tim 4:6)?

If God played games with the life and death of people simply to yield the maximum number of "saved" souls, I think He would essentially be violating the free will of people ultimately. Jesus said "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt 10:22, 24:13). God has some reason (unknown to us) for keeping Satan around to test people. He doesn't have to. I think He wants our love for Him to be tested and proven true. Not everyone who merely believes in God is saved (James 2:19) but only those who confess Jesus as Lord of their lives and are willing to serve Him at any cost.

Well, those are my thoughts on the subject. I don't know if I answered any of your questions but that's all I can say for now. I appreciate the dialog with you Erich.

God bless.

[Guest]

Perhaps it is because what someone does at a given point does not matter so much as an ongoing faihfulness; its not a transaction but a relationship. "Faithful until death and I will give you a crown of life".

[Guest]

Christopher,

The sower and the seeds is a good example except that I see it a little different. To me only one of the four was really a “Christian” and that was the only one that produced fruit. Yeah there were shoots that produced leaves that may have given the appearance of fruit (Matt 21:19) but they were all fruitless all the same and the Scripture speaks a lot about fruit being the evidence of a true believer.

And I think what you said about, “If God played games with the life and death of people simply to yield the maximum number of "saved" souls, I think He would essentially be violating the free will of people ultimately.” is the idea that I’m struggling with. Because if an individual can be a full, abiding Christian at one point in time and not one at another point in time than what does that say about God who eventually draws the line when that person dies? If the person died having at that time turned their back on God who’s to say that if they didn’t live a few more years that they might have freely chosen to abide in Christ? I just bring all these questions up (and that’s all they are to me) to point out that they seem to at least exist if this idea of one gaining and losing salvation is true. These questions though don’t seem to come up if the whole of our life can be summed up to determine whether we are His or not.

I too have enjoyed talking to you and again am grateful for it and I was kind of hoping maybe that by posting these questions that they would possibly “bait” Steve to respond by presenting things or Scriptures that I may be overlooking.

Erich <><

[Guest]

Hi Erich,

I am interested in answering every post. When someone else is doing a good job of saying the things I would have said, though, I usually leave that person to do so, and I devote my time to answering other (sometimes, "easier") questions elsewhere. Christopher has said most of the things in this thread that I was thinking of saying, so I did not think it necessary to intrude.

I do have a few thoughts, however, that may not have been brought up or developed in the earlier discussion.

It's hard to make judgments about what God should have done, or should do, based upon His foreknowledge of all things. This approach leads some to say that, since God knew that Adam would sin, He should never have made him, or that God is unjust in creating multitudes of people whom He knew would never be saved. The suggestion that God ought to have killed a man while he was a believer, rather than to let him live to apostasize, is a similar argument.

I realize that you are seeing this as an argument against the possibilty of losing one's genuine salvation, based upon the purposes of God that all should be saved. But all the above arguments concerning God's foreknowledge could equally be used to disprove any doctrine of God's love for sinners—or, alternatively, to argue against the doctrine of God's foreknowledge, as the Openness Theologians have done.

In all of these cases, I accept an element of mystery, in that God's mind and purposes have only been made known to us "in part" (Deut.29:29/ Rom.11:33-34/ 1 Cor.13:12). I think Christopher is correct in calling attention to God's desire to have a tested people dwelling with Him in eternity. I would like for my son to pass every exam given to him at school, but I don't desire it enough to interfere with his answering the questions on his own. The purpose of a test is to reveal the competence of the one being examined. That some people "believe for a while" and then, in time of testing, "fall away" is an incontrovertable fact, acknowledged by Jesus Himself (Luke 8:13).

Why does not God prevent this falling away by taking the person's life while still in a state of grace? This question will be answered differently by different people. Your answer is that they were not truly in a saving state of grace at all. This would mean that for God to take them at that time would not be any better for them than for them to later die in overt apostasy.

Another possible answer may be that God values the passing of the test more than He values the "head count" in heaven. If this were not the case, He would surely have eliminated the devil before now, and could easily present to the unbelievers many more obvious displays of His existence than He has already done. If it is the passing of the test that matters, then it is as incumbent upon a man, both before and after his conversion, to be tested and to overcome. The only difference is that the man after conversion has less reason or excuse for failure, since he now knows the truth and has the Holy Spirit and many resources as his aids to success.

When it comes to the question of whether one who has fallen away was ever really "saved" or "Christian," it is helpful to remember that these terms are not primarily, or not entirely, terms that speak of ultimate destiny. Obviously, the Christian is saved from the wrath to come, if he is indeed a Christian at the time that he faces the judgment, and this means that his eternal destiny is life with God.

However, being a Christian is defined as being a disciple of Christ (Acts 11:26), who has received Christ's life through regeneration (Eph.2:1-2). At any point in time, this may be true of a man, with or without reference to his ultimate destiny. If I were to fall away next year, and to die in apostasy (which I am certain will not be the case—but hypothetically), that would not mean that my Christian status and faith over the past 40 years have been a sham all along.

I have spent many decades enjoying the fruit of salvation in my life—the knowledge of God, the comfort of the Holy Spirit, the power to resist sin and the devil, the fruit of righteousness and the love of the brethren. If I should betray Christ, and depart from the faith, I would not die in grace (Gal.5:4), and would forfeit the ultimate prize of which the past and present mercies have been but a foretaste (1 Cor.9:25-27). What Esau lost was a real birthright, which he earlier possessed and might have retained. We are warned not to duplicate his error (Heb.12:16).

In the end, the question of whether a lost soul was ever previously saved is essentially a moot point. A man who neglects so great salvation is equally lost, whether he was once in a better state or not. The man who once knew the truth and rejected it, however, may have the added pangs of regret that come with knowing that he had once, previously, "escaped the pollutions of the world," but had foolishly—and unnecessarily—allowed himself to be entangled in them again (2 Pet.2:20).

Solomon describes the mournful regrets of such a man, in Proverbs 5:10-14 —

Lest...you mourn at last, when your flesh and your body are consumed, and say:

“How I have hated instruction,
And my heart despised correction!
I have not obeyed the voice of my teachers,
Nor inclined my ear to those who instructed me!
I was on the verge of total ruin,
In the midst of the assembly and congregation.”

[Guest]

Just a couple of thoughts here...

First, when God talks about "knowing" versus not knowing a person, it's not in the sense that we think of today. God isn't talking about whether He's familiar with a person. What this means is God testing a person. For instance, when God said in Amos 3:1-2 that "I have only known you" (the nation of Israel), He meant that He had tested Israel over and over again to see if they would overcome their sins...and they continually failed the test.

So when Christ says in Matthew 7:21-23 that He "never knew" certain people, He meant that He'd never tested them and seen them overcome. (In fact, the very name Israel means one who overcomes with God, so Jesus was in effect saying that whoever He "never knew" were never true Israelites - overcomers - to begin with.)

Next issue, the Book of Life. The other posters have pretty much answered the peripheral questions concerning salvation which relate to the Book of Life, but let me explain what it actually is.

In Exodus 32:32-33, we find Moses, in a very emotional moment, telling God that if He would forgive the Israelites, well and good, but if not, then God should blot Moses' name out of the book that God had written. This same book is called "the book of the living" in Psalm 69:28. In Psalm 139:16, David says that all of his anatomy was laid out in this book even at conception. (And FYI, the phrase "in the lowest parts of the earth" is an idiomatic reference to the remnant of the waters present at creation which gave "birth" to the dry land, and hence metaphorically speaking, to the watery amniotic fluid in which David's fetus formed.) Even David's tears were written in the Book of Life! (Ps. 56:8 ) Finally, according to Daniel 12:1, everyone found written in the Book of Life will be delivered from destruction in the Tribulation.

A similar book is found mentioned in Malachi 3:16, called here the "Book of Remembrance." This book is the earthly counterpart of the "Book of Life" in heaven, which was (and also will be) written at a time of great national testing.

So as you can see, this Book of Life is basically a heavenly record of the deeds and even the very existence of everyone who has ever lived. Whoever is blotted out of this book, it's as if they had never lived. Hence, they can never be resurrected and live again.

Damon