Literally 6 Days

[PR]

Exodus 20:8-11

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."

How do you think the original audience that Moses proclaimed this to understood it? In the context it's presented, I suspect they understood it as six literal days. Sometimes it seems to me that we can overthink (overanalyze) things.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD." Isaiah 55:8

Thanks

Phil

[steve7150]

How do you think the original audience that Moses proclaimed this to understood it? In the context it's presented, I suspect they understood it as six literal days. Sometimes it seems to me that we can overthink (overanalyze) things.








There was no reason the original audience wouldn't take it as anything other then 24 hour days but today we have sophisticated scientific equipment that measures the speed of light waves and radio waves to the edge of the universe indicating the universe to be billions of years old. So either it is that old or God created the universe with the appearance of age built in.

[PR]

Thanks for your thoughts on this Steve. For the life of me though I can't see why God would add that second sentence, if He didn't mean for the original hearers to take it at face value. The commandment is clear enough without it.

Thanks again,

Phil

[Singalphile]

Exodus 20:8-11

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."

How do you think the original audience that Moses proclaimed this to understood it? In the context it's presented, I suspect they understood it as six literal days.

They would have been more familiar with the mythology (for lack of a better word) genre, I think. How they took it, I don't know. I suppose there were various opinions, but perhaps you're right about the most common view. In any case, the 7 days, 24 hour days or not, is certainly partly an illustration of God's desire for Israel to give a day to rest and, ultimately, for us to enter God's rest (Heb 4:9-11). That is what matters, I think. Apart from that ... think what you will, I guess.

So either it is that old or God created the universe with the appearance of age built in.

Those might not be the only options. I doubt that God brought things into existence with bones of animals that never lived and light from stars that never actually existed, and so on. Rather, I imagine it as an explosion of creation and activity that God "fast-forwarded" up to the point where the universe was ready for man, the purpose of it all, and then He stopped tape and let it role, so to speak.

It would be like a time-lapse video, where in 60 seconds you can watch something that actually took 1 month to happen. So if the geologist says, "This took 1 billion years to happen," he or she might be right, but the time - as we currently perceive time - may have occurred in only a few thousand years, if that makes sense.

I don't remember where I picked that up. Maybe someone here. There would be no way to prove or disprove it. (As you might guess, I don't yet have an opinion about young/old Earth/universe.)

[steve7150]

Thanks for your thoughts on this Steve. For the life of me though I can't see why God would add that second sentence, if He didn't mean for the original hearers to take it at face value. The commandment is clear enough without it.








Human days have to be 24 hours because we are confined within the laws of physics but maybe God days are not 24 hours?

[dwight92070]

I haven't said anything about Abel or Cain or Korah, etc. I referred only to the "first few chapters of Genesis", but especially our chapter 1, per the thread.

Dwight speaking: I know that, but you also implied' (and almost came right out and said) that the creation story was a myth, or that it could be a myth. The references were from godly men about Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel, showing that they considered Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel to be real people, not mythological characters.
Regarding Adam and Eve, I have always thought there was a first man and woman - "the man" and "the woman", or Adam and Eve - created in God's image, our ancestors, tempted by a deceiver, resulting in their disobedience to God and our current state. I never said otherwise.

Dwight speaking: Well, you certainly implied otherwise. You seemed to be very much leaning towards the thought that God used mythology here to convey a message.

I don't know if all the Biblical authors had the same opinion. A reference to Adam and Eve doesn't prove or disprove anything that I wrote, as far as I can tell.

Dwight speaking: IMO, it proves that Jesus and those godly men believed that the creation story was factual and literal.

Where we disagree, I'm willing to share your opinion, if I'm convinced. I still wonder if you would allow that God could communicate with us using the genre of mythology ...

Dwight speaking: Obviously God could do anything He wants to do, but I don't consider the Bible to be a mythological book, with the possible exception of strange creatures described in visions.

and I still wonder why there are 7 days of creation rather than, say, 8, and why it should matter to me, just as a matter of history in your more strongly held view, that it was 7 instead of 8.

Dwight speaking: Does it matter to you that the Bible tells us that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights rather than 41 days and 41 nights in Noah's time? Does it matter to you that the Bible tells us that there were 2 thieves crucified with Jesus rather than 3? Does it matter to you that the Bible tells us that Job had 7000 sheep, rather than 8000? There's no reason why any of this should matter to you, unless you want facts instead of myths. As to why God chose 7 days rather than 8, I'm sure you can ask Him that when you see Him.

[Singalphile]

... you also implied' (and almost came right out and said) that the creation story was a myth, or that it could be a myth. The references were from godly men about Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel, showing that they considered Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel to be real people, not mythological characters.

I think we are thinking of the word "myth"/"mythology" differently. Here are a few sentences of the wikipedia page on Mythology:

Myths are the stories people tell to explain nature, history and customs. Myth is a feature of every culture. Many sources for myths have been proposed, ranging from personification of nature or personification of natural phenomena, to truthful or hyperbolic accounts of historical events to explanations of existing rituals. A culture's collective mythology helps convey belonging, shared and religious experiences, behavioral models and moral and practical lessons.

And on Creation Myth:

A creation myth (also called a cosmogonic myth) is a symbolic narrative of how the world began and how people first came to inhabit it. While in popular usage the term myth often refers to false or fanciful stories, formally, it does not imply falsehood. Cultures generally regard their creation myths as true. In the society in which it is told, a creation myth is usually regarded as conveying profound truths, metaphorically, symbolically and sometimes in a historical or literal sense.

A non-literal myth can express truth or falsehood. In the case of Genesis 1-3, I think it is true and from God, of course, but probably not entirely literal. I think that's similar to C.S. Lewis' view. Genesis 1 appears to be similar to mythologies of that time, and it appears to have a poetic structure. As I said, that inclines me to see it as written in that genre of mythology. (There might be a better term, actually. I'm no expert.)

You seemed to be very much leaning towards the thought that God used mythology here to convey a message.

Yes, that's true. That does not mean that there was never a first pair of humans called something like Adam and Eve (in whatever language). As I said, it appears to me that the Genesis 3 account is more of a symbolic narrative (or mythology) rather than a literal account. Either way, the theological meaning and relevance for us is the same.

I read the rest of your response too, and I thank you.

Have a good Sunday, all.

[dwight92070]

1 Timothy 1:3-4

As I urged you upon my departure for Madedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to MYTHS and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to MYTHS.

Titus 1:10-14

For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish MYTHS and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

If the apostle Paul thought that Genesis 1 was a myth or mythological, (understanding that the definition of "myth" could refer to truth or falsehood), he would warn us not to pay attention to it and to turn away from it. Instead, he teaches from it and calls it profitable:

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of
God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Therefore, Genesis 1 cannot be mythological.

[Singalphile]

1 Timothy 1:3-4

As I urged you upon my departure for Madedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to MYTHS and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to MYTHS.

Titus 1:10-14

For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish MYTHS and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

If the apostle Paul thought that Genesis 1 was a myth or mythological, (understanding that the definition of "myth" could refer to truth or falsehood), he would warn us not to pay attention to it and to turn away from it. Instead, he teaches from it and calls it profitable:

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of
God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Therefore, Genesis 1 cannot be mythological.

I think you're argument relies on equivocation, which dictionary.com defines as "the use of equivocal or ambiguous expressions ...," and, "[in Logic.] a fallacy caused by the double meaning of a word."

The Greek muthos has multiple meanings, as does the modern English word "mythology". Paul's use of muthos is certainly not my understanding of the modern English word "mythology", I think, as I explained it, since he and I both regard Genesis as God-breathed scripture. Nevertheless, as I stated in my last post about the word "mythology": "There might be a better term, actually. I'm no expert."

Perhaps "symbolic narrative" is better, to avoid semantic confusion.

In any case, as I said before, Genesis 1-3 is "true and from God, but probably not entirely literal." I am certainly not interested in Jewish legends and endless genealogies.

[dwight92070]

The Greek word "muthos" means a speech, story, i.e. a fable. A speech or a story could be true or fictitious. A fable is a fictitious narrative or story. Paul is obviously using it to warn us of fictitious material or stories. It wouldn't agree with other scripture, if he was warning us against true material or stories.

IMO, it's very misleading and confusing to call anything in scripture mythology, especially if you believe the Bible to be true. In my experience, the word "myth" has always meant an untrue story or tale. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone use it in any other way. So, to me, Paul's words are clear, since he uses it that way. In fact, if there is really a valid alternative definition, then it is surprising to me that Paul would not have clarified that.

To be honest, I am suspicious of the apparent 2nd meaning of "myth" as to it actually ever meaning a true story.

In college, I had a teacher of Greek mythology who very often would compare it to "Bible mythology", basically equating the two and regarding both to be fictitious and untrue. It was not surpising to find out that she was very anti-Bible.