This isn't a question about hell. This is a question about the life of the believer after physical death. I've been really thinking a lot about what it's going to be like for us .
My question is if when we leave this body our spirit goes to be with the Father, to the company of just men made perfect, are the spirits of the just that have went on
to eternity ruling with Christ from heaven now? I know the bible states it doesn't appear yet what we shall be but we will be like Him (Jesus) when He returns. I don't
understand about the resurrection of the last day, the bodily resurrection, soul sleep, the spirit going to be with the Lord, etc. etc....
If anyone has any clarity or notions concerning these things
I'd like to read them.
Thanks
mitzi
Everlasting life , what do we know about it?
Re: Everlasting life , what do we know about it?
There would be different ideas held by different participants at this forum, but I can give my thoughts.
Paul believed that a person is something other than his/her body, and has conscious existence independently from the body. For example, he believed it was possible for someone to have a vision while in an out-of-body state (2 Cor.12:2-3). In speaking of death, he described it (for the Christian) as being "absent from the body" and "present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8). For him, to die was to "depart" from the body, and "be with Christ" (Phil 1:23). In Revelation, the "souls" of those who have died in Christ are pictured as being presently in heaven (Rev.6:9; 20:4) and will be brought back to earth with Him when he returns (1 Thes. 4:14). In the interim, between death and Christ's return, the "souls" in heaven are said to be "reigning" with Christ (Rev.20:4), though no detail is given of their functions.
The bodies of the saved, as well as of the lost, will rot in the ground shortly after physical death. However, when Jesus returns, the bodies will be raised (1 Cor.15:52; 1 Thes.4:16). For the Christian, this apparently involves a number of things: 1) the recomposition of the body from its decomposed state, 2) the re-entry of the "soul" or "spirit" into the reconstituted body, and 3) the immortalization and glorification of the body. We are not told anything about the resurrected state of unbelievers (i.e., whether they are raised immortal or otherwise), but they, too, will rise and face the judgment (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15; Rev.20:12-15).
Once raised immortal, the believers will live with Christ forever in a renewed earth, wherein none of the effects of the curse remain. No death, sickness, sorrow or pain (e.g., Rev.21:4). No detail is given concerning the society in which we will share the governance, except for the fact that there will be no crime or rebellion, no economic lack, no war, or any of the effects of sin. One very great difference in that age will be the absence of marriage, as we know it (Matt.22:30). What there will be to replace it, we are not told. However, whatever joys may attach to marriage in this present age will certainly be eclipsed in that age, as the pleasure of riding bicycles replaced the joy of riding tricycles, in our childhood.
There is a hint that the society may be divided into separate governing districts ("cities" —Luke 19:17, 19), but, as this detail appears only in a parable, it is difficult to know how far to press the imagery. If we ask, "Over whom will the saints reign?" I don't think the BIble answers this directly. Several answers (not equally likely) can be tentatively suggested:
1) there may be many levels of authority, wherein some reign over others who are themselves reigning over others—similar to the ranks in the military or in any government (Matt.8:9);
2) as Adam was given authority over the animal kingdom, there may be other of God's creatures, terrestrial or extraterrestrial, over which God intends for us to reign (Gen.1:28);
3) as glorified sons of God, it may be that we will reign, as He does, over the forces of nature (Matt.8:27);
4) there may be people who have belatedly repented, whether very near the time of their death or even post-mortem, who are saved but who will not reign with Christ, because they never suffered with Him in this life (2 Tim.2:12).
5) Perhaps, since greatness is in serving, the "reigning" with Christ will consist in our all being servants of each other (Matt.20:25-28);
6) We shall simply have to wait and see...
Paul believed that a person is something other than his/her body, and has conscious existence independently from the body. For example, he believed it was possible for someone to have a vision while in an out-of-body state (2 Cor.12:2-3). In speaking of death, he described it (for the Christian) as being "absent from the body" and "present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:8). For him, to die was to "depart" from the body, and "be with Christ" (Phil 1:23). In Revelation, the "souls" of those who have died in Christ are pictured as being presently in heaven (Rev.6:9; 20:4) and will be brought back to earth with Him when he returns (1 Thes. 4:14). In the interim, between death and Christ's return, the "souls" in heaven are said to be "reigning" with Christ (Rev.20:4), though no detail is given of their functions.
The bodies of the saved, as well as of the lost, will rot in the ground shortly after physical death. However, when Jesus returns, the bodies will be raised (1 Cor.15:52; 1 Thes.4:16). For the Christian, this apparently involves a number of things: 1) the recomposition of the body from its decomposed state, 2) the re-entry of the "soul" or "spirit" into the reconstituted body, and 3) the immortalization and glorification of the body. We are not told anything about the resurrected state of unbelievers (i.e., whether they are raised immortal or otherwise), but they, too, will rise and face the judgment (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15; Rev.20:12-15).
Once raised immortal, the believers will live with Christ forever in a renewed earth, wherein none of the effects of the curse remain. No death, sickness, sorrow or pain (e.g., Rev.21:4). No detail is given concerning the society in which we will share the governance, except for the fact that there will be no crime or rebellion, no economic lack, no war, or any of the effects of sin. One very great difference in that age will be the absence of marriage, as we know it (Matt.22:30). What there will be to replace it, we are not told. However, whatever joys may attach to marriage in this present age will certainly be eclipsed in that age, as the pleasure of riding bicycles replaced the joy of riding tricycles, in our childhood.
There is a hint that the society may be divided into separate governing districts ("cities" —Luke 19:17, 19), but, as this detail appears only in a parable, it is difficult to know how far to press the imagery. If we ask, "Over whom will the saints reign?" I don't think the BIble answers this directly. Several answers (not equally likely) can be tentatively suggested:
1) there may be many levels of authority, wherein some reign over others who are themselves reigning over others—similar to the ranks in the military or in any government (Matt.8:9);
2) as Adam was given authority over the animal kingdom, there may be other of God's creatures, terrestrial or extraterrestrial, over which God intends for us to reign (Gen.1:28);
3) as glorified sons of God, it may be that we will reign, as He does, over the forces of nature (Matt.8:27);
4) there may be people who have belatedly repented, whether very near the time of their death or even post-mortem, who are saved but who will not reign with Christ, because they never suffered with Him in this life (2 Tim.2:12).
5) Perhaps, since greatness is in serving, the "reigning" with Christ will consist in our all being servants of each other (Matt.20:25-28);
6) We shall simply have to wait and see...
Re: Everlasting life , what do we know about it?
"Once raised immortal, the believers will live with Christ forever in a renewed earth, wherein none of the effects of the curse remain. No death, sickness, sorrow or pain (e.g., Rev.21:4). No detail is given concerning the society in which we will share the governance, except for the fact that there will be no crime or rebellion, no economic lack, no war, or any of the effects of sin."
Steve,
Though I disagree with a few of your other points, I want to focus closely on this one. The chapter starts with a declaration that the New Heavens and New Earth (NHNE) has completely replaced the old one, but the following verses are used to describe the conditions in the New Jerusalem, not necessarily everywhere in the NHNE:
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Rev 21:6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
A great deal of the rest of the book is dedicated to describing the conditions of the New Jerusalem, but there certainly is rebellion and sin going on outside of it in the New Heavens and New Earth. John does nothing to deviate from how this is shown throughout the Old Testament, which has no assumption of the end of history or evil on earth. The overcomer, or "the one who conquers", experiences the goodness of the city, but there are still living people who exist outside of the gates who are bad.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
It's important to note here that John is connecting the function of the New Jerusalem with all of the imagery associated with Jerusalem after the final climactic battle found in many places in the OT. So, it is parallel to Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 14. Both of these passages, and all other similar ones that I've ever found, presume ongoing human history on earth perpetually into the future. None of these passages propose that evil people stop existing in history, or that human history ends. While I think we should use the NT writers' perspective to say that there is a spiritual fulfillment of these prophecies as opposed to a crass physical one, no OT writer proposes that human history actually ends.
In fact, in Isaiah's account of the conditions of the New Heaven and New Earth (the passage from which John drew his imagery of the NHNE, since it is only found in the last few chapters of Isaiah) we see that after the climactic battle missionaries are sent around the world to evangelize people who've never heard of God (a dynamic that would be completely impossible with the standard approach).
Isa 66:18 "For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory,
Isa 66:19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.
Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.
Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
The version of this in Zechariah 14 is particularly powerful, since it describes what happens to those who rebel during that period:
Zec 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
Zec 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
Doug
Steve,
Though I disagree with a few of your other points, I want to focus closely on this one. The chapter starts with a declaration that the New Heavens and New Earth (NHNE) has completely replaced the old one, but the following verses are used to describe the conditions in the New Jerusalem, not necessarily everywhere in the NHNE:
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Rev 21:6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
A great deal of the rest of the book is dedicated to describing the conditions of the New Jerusalem, but there certainly is rebellion and sin going on outside of it in the New Heavens and New Earth. John does nothing to deviate from how this is shown throughout the Old Testament, which has no assumption of the end of history or evil on earth. The overcomer, or "the one who conquers", experiences the goodness of the city, but there are still living people who exist outside of the gates who are bad.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
It's important to note here that John is connecting the function of the New Jerusalem with all of the imagery associated with Jerusalem after the final climactic battle found in many places in the OT. So, it is parallel to Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 14. Both of these passages, and all other similar ones that I've ever found, presume ongoing human history on earth perpetually into the future. None of these passages propose that evil people stop existing in history, or that human history ends. While I think we should use the NT writers' perspective to say that there is a spiritual fulfillment of these prophecies as opposed to a crass physical one, no OT writer proposes that human history actually ends.
In fact, in Isaiah's account of the conditions of the New Heaven and New Earth (the passage from which John drew his imagery of the NHNE, since it is only found in the last few chapters of Isaiah) we see that after the climactic battle missionaries are sent around the world to evangelize people who've never heard of God (a dynamic that would be completely impossible with the standard approach).
Isa 66:18 "For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory,
Isa 66:19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.
Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.
Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
The version of this in Zechariah 14 is particularly powerful, since it describes what happens to those who rebel during that period:
Zec 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
Zec 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
Doug
Re: Everlasting life , what do we know about it?
When Jesus spoke of the after-life, He spoke of the resurrection. The apostle John recorded four times in John 6, that Jesus said He would raise up on the last day those who entrust themselves to Him.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Paul's great hope seems to have been in the resurrection. He indicated in the great resurrection chapter (1 Cor 15) that unless we are raised from death, we might as well eat, drink, and be merry, that is enjoy ourselves in this life, since there's nothing more:
What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” (1Cor 15:32 ESV)
The fact that Paul spoke of "a man in Christ whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know" who had a vision, doesn't imply that Paul BELIEVED a person had a conscious existence apart from the body. It implies only that which Paul actually stated—that he did not KNOW.
It is true that Paul referred to death as "absent from the body". But "present with the Lord" may not refer to a disembodied state. In view of the context, it probably refers to the resurrected state of being.
Let's examine the whole passage in context from the NKJV:
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
It's true that Paul here describes our mortal body as "an earthly house" or "tent". People dwell in houses and tents, and so this suggests that we "dwell" in our body. And that suggests that the "I' who dwells is a body is something other than a body. Of course, this is true. The person is more than a mere physical body. But it is quite likely that this metaphysical "I" cannot exist apart from this mortal body since it is so mingled with the body, especially in the brain. When the brain dies, it seems that the metaphysical entity dies along with it.
The house in the heavens, not made with hands is our resurrected body. When we have been raised from the dead, the metaphyical "I" will then be mingled with an immortal body.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
We look with keen anticipation to our resurrection when we will be raised again in a new immortal body.
"This mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:53)
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
When we have been raised to life in the immortal body, we will not be found as disembodied spirits.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
Our great desire is NOT that we want to become disembodied spirits, but that we might be raised in our new immortal bodies. Our present mortality will be completely gone, and only immortal life will remain.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
When the metaphysical "I" is mingled with our present mortal body here on earth we are absent from the presence of the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
We are pleased and also very happy to be absent from this present mortal body and to be present with the Lord in our future immortal body when we are raised to life.
The fact that John, the writer of Revelation, in his vision, saw the "souls" of those who had died, and the "souls" of those beheaded for their testimony of Jesus, that the ctual state of the dead is in the form of disembodied souls or spirits which exist somewhere after death. In his vision he also saw locusts that were shaped like horses prepared for battle, and had what looked like golden crowns on their heads, with human-like faces and hair like that of women, teeth like those of lions, and breastplates like breastplates of iron, as well as wings which sounded like chariots pulled by many horses running into battle. (Rev 9:7-10). The fact that John saw such locusts in his vision in no way implies that such locusts ever existed or will exist.
If it WERE possible for us to exist happily in heaven as disembodied spirits, then what is the purpose of the resurrection? Jesus taught it. Paul taught it as all-important. But it wouldn't be important at all if we simply fly away to heaven as spirits. Why wouldn't we be perfectly happy in that state? Again, what purpose would there be in the resurrection of our bodies at some future time? Indeed, many or perhaps most people who believe in going to heaven at death as a spirit or soul, attach little if any importance to the resurrection. Preacher who believe this don't preach the resurrection. They preach "Where will you be 5 minutes after you die?" Their great hope is not in the resurrection, but in going to heaven at death.
I recall attending two funerals on the same day. In the morning, the speaker said with deep conviction, "Mr. H. will live again!" It sent a thrill through my whole being. By contrast, in the afternoon the speaker said, "Mrs. K. did not die. She just walked through a door." Those words sounded like a mere platitude.
In Psalm 146:34 (NASB) we read:
Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
The writer seems to be saying that a man's thoughts perish ,when the spirit of life within him departs, and there is only a body to return to earth. If he existed separately from his body as a living, conscious, disembodied spirits, his thoughts would not have perished.
In the early days of Christianity, it was the gnostics who didn't believe in a resurrection but the departure of the "soul" to heaven at death. Justin Martyr, a well-known leader and author in the early church, born about 110 A.D. in his discussion with Trypho and other Jews, stated, "If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, who say that there is no resurrection, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they ARE Christians..."
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Paul's great hope seems to have been in the resurrection. He indicated in the great resurrection chapter (1 Cor 15) that unless we are raised from death, we might as well eat, drink, and be merry, that is enjoy ourselves in this life, since there's nothing more:
What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” (1Cor 15:32 ESV)
The fact that Paul spoke of "a man in Christ whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know" who had a vision, doesn't imply that Paul BELIEVED a person had a conscious existence apart from the body. It implies only that which Paul actually stated—that he did not KNOW.
It is true that Paul referred to death as "absent from the body". But "present with the Lord" may not refer to a disembodied state. In view of the context, it probably refers to the resurrected state of being.
Let's examine the whole passage in context from the NKJV:
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
It's true that Paul here describes our mortal body as "an earthly house" or "tent". People dwell in houses and tents, and so this suggests that we "dwell" in our body. And that suggests that the "I' who dwells is a body is something other than a body. Of course, this is true. The person is more than a mere physical body. But it is quite likely that this metaphysical "I" cannot exist apart from this mortal body since it is so mingled with the body, especially in the brain. When the brain dies, it seems that the metaphysical entity dies along with it.
The house in the heavens, not made with hands is our resurrected body. When we have been raised from the dead, the metaphyical "I" will then be mingled with an immortal body.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
We look with keen anticipation to our resurrection when we will be raised again in a new immortal body.
"This mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:53)
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
When we have been raised to life in the immortal body, we will not be found as disembodied spirits.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
Our great desire is NOT that we want to become disembodied spirits, but that we might be raised in our new immortal bodies. Our present mortality will be completely gone, and only immortal life will remain.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
When the metaphysical "I" is mingled with our present mortal body here on earth we are absent from the presence of the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
We are pleased and also very happy to be absent from this present mortal body and to be present with the Lord in our future immortal body when we are raised to life.
The fact that John, the writer of Revelation, in his vision, saw the "souls" of those who had died, and the "souls" of those beheaded for their testimony of Jesus, that the ctual state of the dead is in the form of disembodied souls or spirits which exist somewhere after death. In his vision he also saw locusts that were shaped like horses prepared for battle, and had what looked like golden crowns on their heads, with human-like faces and hair like that of women, teeth like those of lions, and breastplates like breastplates of iron, as well as wings which sounded like chariots pulled by many horses running into battle. (Rev 9:7-10). The fact that John saw such locusts in his vision in no way implies that such locusts ever existed or will exist.
If it WERE possible for us to exist happily in heaven as disembodied spirits, then what is the purpose of the resurrection? Jesus taught it. Paul taught it as all-important. But it wouldn't be important at all if we simply fly away to heaven as spirits. Why wouldn't we be perfectly happy in that state? Again, what purpose would there be in the resurrection of our bodies at some future time? Indeed, many or perhaps most people who believe in going to heaven at death as a spirit or soul, attach little if any importance to the resurrection. Preacher who believe this don't preach the resurrection. They preach "Where will you be 5 minutes after you die?" Their great hope is not in the resurrection, but in going to heaven at death.
I recall attending two funerals on the same day. In the morning, the speaker said with deep conviction, "Mr. H. will live again!" It sent a thrill through my whole being. By contrast, in the afternoon the speaker said, "Mrs. K. did not die. She just walked through a door." Those words sounded like a mere platitude.
In Psalm 146:34 (NASB) we read:
Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
The writer seems to be saying that a man's thoughts perish ,when the spirit of life within him departs, and there is only a body to return to earth. If he existed separately from his body as a living, conscious, disembodied spirits, his thoughts would not have perished.
In the early days of Christianity, it was the gnostics who didn't believe in a resurrection but the departure of the "soul" to heaven at death. Justin Martyr, a well-known leader and author in the early church, born about 110 A.D. in his discussion with Trypho and other Jews, stated, "If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, who say that there is no resurrection, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they ARE Christians..."
Last edited by Paidion on Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Everlasting life , what do we know about it?
Paidon,
I presume that was aimed at me. I disagree with most of your understanding of the passages you quoted. We've been down that road before. I'd rather hear what you have to say about our comments above?
Doug
I presume that was aimed at me. I disagree with most of your understanding of the passages you quoted. We've been down that road before. I'd rather hear what you have to say about our comments above?
Doug
Re: Everlasting life , what do we know about it?
Doug,
I was apparently writing this response to you while Paidion was posting. Thus, my answer does not take into consideration anything in Paidion's post, which I had not seen while writing.
I am familiar with this line of thinking, which is one of the areas in which I acknowledged that there will be differences of opinion among those who participate here. I see the connection between Revelation and the rest of prophetic scripture somewhat differently than you do, so that it uses familiar imagery from the Old Testament, but giving that imagery new dimensions of meaning. This is another debate, I suppose, which I will not engage here.
My reasons for seeing a future, literal new heavens and new earth, such as I described above, would include the following:
1) We are told that "there is no more any curse" in the renewed order (Rev.22:3). Christians, in the present age, still sweat when laboring for their food in the sun, and still experience pain in childbirth. They also still die. These, in my opinion, are effects of the curse, which will be no more;
2) There is no more marriage or death among the resurrected saints, but those things still exist in the present order (Luke 20:35-36);
3) Jesus said His mission was to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10), which I take to include the restoration of the lost pristine state of the planet, and not merely people. Paul said Christ's mission was to reconcile all things that He had created (Col.1:16, 20). I understand the divine purpose to be the final restoration of the cosmos, including the earth, to a pre-fallen state. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, this is what their eternal habitation would have been, and I believe it was God's will that they not sin.
4) There is no mention in scripture of the saints living eternally in disembodied form in the heavens. The destiny of the saints is earthly. The goal of God's redemption is the conquest and recapture of the earth for God. It is the promise of God that Christ will inherit the uttermost parts of the earth (Psalm 2:8), and that we will (with Him) inherit the earth (Matt.5:5). The glory of the Lord will fill the earth as the waters cover the seas (Hab.2:14). Every last enemy of Christ will be defeated before He turns the conquered creation over to His Father (1 Cor.15:25-27). To divorce the spiritual from the physical in salvation comes dangerously close (if it is not, indeed, identical) to the gnostic heresy.
5) If the cosmos is never renewed, it must eventually run down and burn out, like all natural systems. There must either be an end of the natural world, or its supernatural renewal.
I know these points can all be debated, but I have considered all the relevant texts, and simply cannot harmonize all of them with a full-preterist paradigm.
I was apparently writing this response to you while Paidion was posting. Thus, my answer does not take into consideration anything in Paidion's post, which I had not seen while writing.
I am familiar with this line of thinking, which is one of the areas in which I acknowledged that there will be differences of opinion among those who participate here. I see the connection between Revelation and the rest of prophetic scripture somewhat differently than you do, so that it uses familiar imagery from the Old Testament, but giving that imagery new dimensions of meaning. This is another debate, I suppose, which I will not engage here.
My reasons for seeing a future, literal new heavens and new earth, such as I described above, would include the following:
1) We are told that "there is no more any curse" in the renewed order (Rev.22:3). Christians, in the present age, still sweat when laboring for their food in the sun, and still experience pain in childbirth. They also still die. These, in my opinion, are effects of the curse, which will be no more;
2) There is no more marriage or death among the resurrected saints, but those things still exist in the present order (Luke 20:35-36);
3) Jesus said His mission was to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10), which I take to include the restoration of the lost pristine state of the planet, and not merely people. Paul said Christ's mission was to reconcile all things that He had created (Col.1:16, 20). I understand the divine purpose to be the final restoration of the cosmos, including the earth, to a pre-fallen state. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, this is what their eternal habitation would have been, and I believe it was God's will that they not sin.
4) There is no mention in scripture of the saints living eternally in disembodied form in the heavens. The destiny of the saints is earthly. The goal of God's redemption is the conquest and recapture of the earth for God. It is the promise of God that Christ will inherit the uttermost parts of the earth (Psalm 2:8), and that we will (with Him) inherit the earth (Matt.5:5). The glory of the Lord will fill the earth as the waters cover the seas (Hab.2:14). Every last enemy of Christ will be defeated before He turns the conquered creation over to His Father (1 Cor.15:25-27). To divorce the spiritual from the physical in salvation comes dangerously close (if it is not, indeed, identical) to the gnostic heresy.
5) If the cosmos is never renewed, it must eventually run down and burn out, like all natural systems. There must either be an end of the natural world, or its supernatural renewal.
I know these points can all be debated, but I have considered all the relevant texts, and simply cannot harmonize all of them with a full-preterist paradigm.
Re: Everlasting life , what do we know about it?
Paidion,
I could answer (and often have, in the past) each of the points you made against the survival of the soul beyond death. I will not belabor the points here, because I have little interest in this particular difference of opinion. After I have given the answers and interpretations of the relevant passages that persuade me of my view, you will remain unpersuaded, because your interpretations, clearly, commend themselves to you. The question of soul survival is an academic one, not one of practical interest.
As for your question, what would be the point of the resurrection, if the dead saints are already happy in heaven, I would recommend my reply to Doug (above)—especially, points 3 and 4—to provide my answer.
It is interesting that, though our views are not the same, we both invoke the gnostics as a group with which we do not wish to agree. On that score, I have no quarrel with you, and you cannot have one with me, since I do not abandon the physical realm to the demiurge. It is Doug's full preterism, with its seeming assumption that the physical realm is not to be redeemed, and must remain eternally in the clutches of evil, that sounds closest to gnosticism.
I could answer (and often have, in the past) each of the points you made against the survival of the soul beyond death. I will not belabor the points here, because I have little interest in this particular difference of opinion. After I have given the answers and interpretations of the relevant passages that persuade me of my view, you will remain unpersuaded, because your interpretations, clearly, commend themselves to you. The question of soul survival is an academic one, not one of practical interest.
As for your question, what would be the point of the resurrection, if the dead saints are already happy in heaven, I would recommend my reply to Doug (above)—especially, points 3 and 4—to provide my answer.
It is interesting that, though our views are not the same, we both invoke the gnostics as a group with which we do not wish to agree. On that score, I have no quarrel with you, and you cannot have one with me, since I do not abandon the physical realm to the demiurge. It is Doug's full preterism, with its seeming assumption that the physical realm is not to be redeemed, and must remain eternally in the clutches of evil, that sounds closest to gnosticism.
Re: Everlasting life , what do we know about it?
Well... I'm not certain about that. I think Mitzi may consider what happens and death and afterwards to be quite practical.Steve, you wrote:The question is an academic one, not one of practical interest.
I know that for each person individually, it will make no practical difference, for in either case, the next thing of which he will be aware is being in the presence of the Lord.
However, for those whose loved ones have died, there does seem to be a quite practical application of one's belief concerning the after-life. One Catholic priest with whom I spoke explained to me why he talked to "the saints" and Mary. "They are alive in heaven", he said. I asked him whether he talked to his parents who had died. He replied, "Certainly! God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (quoting a verse which Jesus spoke with respect to the resurrection).
Last edited by Paidion on Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Everlasting life , what do we know about it?
The practice of necromancy is not a necessary corollary of belief in the survival of souls. Saul and his medium apparently believed the spirits could be contacted, but it was not this belief, but their rebellion against God's commands, that caused them to summon Samuel's spirit.
Re: Everlasting life , what do we know about it?
Steve and Paidon,
I think the key to both of your answers is a defective understanding of gnosticism. I think I've written enough on it in the past that I don't have to repeat myself here at length. But, I'd suggest reading some newer scholarship on it. Christian academia is way behind the times on the topic.
I suggest the follow three books in order:
http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Gnosti ... gnosticism
http://www.amazon.com/No-Longer-Jews-Gn ... onger+jews
http://www.amazon.com/Pre-Christian-Gno ... gnosticism
However, I will make on point to directly answer your concern about a polluted physical universe. There is no recorded history prior to Christianity of a Jewish understanding that the physical universe is inherently polluted or in need of repair as far as I know. Wright and others have talked about this. The assertion that the physical universe is inherently polluted comes most likely from a combination of a Platonic cosmololgy and gnostic speculation about how to reconfigure Judaism in the 120AD+ time frame. Through Augustine, who as you know converted from gnosticism, we get a great deal of novel doctrine such as what turned into Calvinism. A polluted view of the physical universe is one of the things he brings with him. Steve, I appreciate such a detailed answer to my post. I'd like to hear more from you in the future about how to handle such passages as Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 14.
Doug
I think the key to both of your answers is a defective understanding of gnosticism. I think I've written enough on it in the past that I don't have to repeat myself here at length. But, I'd suggest reading some newer scholarship on it. Christian academia is way behind the times on the topic.
I suggest the follow three books in order:
http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Gnosti ... gnosticism
http://www.amazon.com/No-Longer-Jews-Gn ... onger+jews
http://www.amazon.com/Pre-Christian-Gno ... gnosticism
However, I will make on point to directly answer your concern about a polluted physical universe. There is no recorded history prior to Christianity of a Jewish understanding that the physical universe is inherently polluted or in need of repair as far as I know. Wright and others have talked about this. The assertion that the physical universe is inherently polluted comes most likely from a combination of a Platonic cosmololgy and gnostic speculation about how to reconfigure Judaism in the 120AD+ time frame. Through Augustine, who as you know converted from gnosticism, we get a great deal of novel doctrine such as what turned into Calvinism. A polluted view of the physical universe is one of the things he brings with him. Steve, I appreciate such a detailed answer to my post. I'd like to hear more from you in the future about how to handle such passages as Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 14.
Doug