The Narrow Path Ministries

Suppose you were invited to bet $100 on whether the figure above is a spiral or whether it consists of concentric circles. Would you bet on the spiral? If so, you lose.

Our mind INSISTS on seeing a spiral. but just use a toothpick to trace around the imagined spiral, and see whether it leads you closer to the centre. You will find, to your surprise that you are simply tracing round and round the same circle.

I often wonder whether the above figure is a good illustration of our theology. We see what seems perfectly obvious to us. But perhaps the reality is much different from that of which we are so certain.

Paidion wrote:I often wonder whether the above figure is a good illustration of our theology. We see what seems perfectly obvious to us. But perhaps the reality is much different from that of which we are so certain.

Of course, in Christianity... the question is not so much what we see, but what has been revealed. And because of that, I doubt the reality is 'much different' from revelation (unless God is a poor communicator).

Interesting. Even after accepting that the image was comprised of circles I could not trace them with my eyes for verification. I had to use my mouse pointer.

Paidion wrote:Our mind INSISTS on seeing a spiral. but just use a toothpick to trace around the imagined spiral, and see whether it leads you closer to the centre. You will find, to your surprise that you are simply tracing round and round the same circle.

TheEditor wrote: Matt, what exactly has been revealed, do you think, that is clear? I have my thoughts, but I'd be interested in yours.

Regards, Brenden[/size]

I think it is clear that God is creative, relational, incarnational, sacrificially loving, and powerful.

Matt wrote:Of course, in Christianity... the question is not so much what we see, but what has been revealed. And because of that, I doubt the reality is 'much different' from revelation .

If revelation is that plain, then there should be agreement among Christians as to what has been revealed. But there is considerable disagreement.

(unless God is a poor communicator)

It is not that God is a poor communicator, but that man is inadequate in his ability to receive that communication. For example, I understand God to have been revealed in and by Christ as being pure LOVE, while others, while agreeing that He is a God of love, affirm that He is also a God of vengeance. I see no way that love can express itself as vengeance. We would never recognize vengeance as an expression of love when carried out by a human being. But somehow some find it rational to attribute both love and vengeance to God while, at the same time, denying that He is schizophrenic.

You thought I'd take that bait, didn't you, Paidion?

God didn’t create a book of deceptive illusions, it’s man that draws the deceptions and circles around Gods clear words. I think the foundations and words of our faith are made clear, but we have to sort through the plethora of so many of mans distortions of His Word.
“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it” (Deuteronomy 30)
For this people's heart has grown callous; their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes… 16 "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.… (Matthew 13:15)

Much like Creation, there are people with a hundred wonderful reasons to believe it was not Created, yet it was.

Paidion wrote:If revelation is that plain, then there should be agreement among Christians as to what has been revealed. But there is considerable disagreement.

It is not that God is a poor communicator, but that man is inadequate in his ability to receive that communication. For example, I understand God to have been revealed in and by Christ as being pure LOVE, while others, while agreeing that He is a God of love, affirm that He is also a God of vengeance. I see no way that love can express itself as vengeance. We would never recognize vengeance as an expression of love when carried out by a human being. But somehow some find it rational to attribute both love and vengeance to God while, at the same time, denying that He is schizophrenic.

I doubt we disagree much on this subject. I was responding to your choice of the word MUCH in the original post. Given God's revelation, there are clear boundaries to what we should believe about God. In other words (in line with my second post in this thread), it wouldn't make sense given revelation to believe that God was boring, impersonal, stand-off-ish, hateful, and weak. I agree with you that we are left to debate definitions of words, but its not a free-for-all what words are chosen!

It's like with any given passage of Scripture... There are a thousand things it couldn't mean and a few things it could mean.

And even with your picture. It seems like a spiral, but we can entertain the notion that it is circles (and find out for sure that it is). But it'd be off the wall to wonder if maybe it is a series of triangles or squares or, worse yet, guitars or scooters.

Okay, Matt. I think I see what you're saying. People can hold to various views as to what the Biblical writers are saying, but only within limits.

Yet I have noticed that some comments made even by those who believe in an inerrant Bible seem very close to being guitars and scooters.

Steve, I wasn't trying to bait you. It did enter my mind that, because of our past discussions, you might think that I had offered my example with you particularly in mind, but I honestly affirm that this was not the case. Perhaps it would have been wiser under the circumstances for me to have used some other example.