The Narrow Path Ministries

For Paidion, DanielGraceley or anyone with what I would call "advanced knowledge of Greek":

I feel quite ignorant when I see you guys talking about 1st century Greek and using terms like "middle voice", "self-reflexive action", "reflexive pronoun", etc. I was wondering if there is a particular set of books that you guys have read that have helped you to understand Greek and it's usage. Or, are you guys Greek scholars? In which case, I throw up the white flag.

Seriously, I wish I understood some of this stuff and if I ever find the time, I'd like to study Greek a little to enhance my knowledge. I would appreciate any recommended reading. Thanks

I've used William Mounce's introductory texts:

http://www.amazon.com/Basics-Biblical-G ... iam+mounce

http://www.amazon.com/Basics-Biblical-W ... iam+mounce

For further study, there's Daniel Wallace's text:

http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Beyond-Ba ... 434&sr=1-1

I recommend you find somebody to study with - preferably somebody who has already studied the language. You might find a pastor in your area who is willing to study/practice with you.

You can also study Bill Mounce's lessons and lectures online.

http://www.teknia.com/

wwalkeriv wrote:I feel quite ignorant when I see you guys talking about 1st century Greek and using terms like "middle voice", "self-reflexive action", "reflexive pronoun", etc.

There's certainly nothing wrong with studying Greek or Hebrew if you're so inclined for whatever reason. But if your goal is to understand the Bible better, for most of us the time and effort are better spent studying the Bible and depending on some good reference materials for in-depth language knowledge. The time and effort necessary to get past the point of doing more harm than good with it is just not practical or profitable for most of us.

My goal in studying koine Greek was to understand what the New Testament writers MEANT to say, not what commentators and translators THINK they meant, coming, as they do, from a particular school of theological understanding. Take virtually any passage, particularly those that are not clear in English translations. The rendering into English of some of these passages varies so widely, that they have even contrasting meanings.

Consider Philippians 2:6 for example in the New King James Version:

[Christ Jesus] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God

The NKJV appears to say that since Jesus is in God's form, He didn't think His desire to be equal with God would rob anything from God, or take anything away from God.

The Revised Standard Version says the opposite:

[Christ Jesus] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped

This translation seems to say that even though Jesus was in the form of God, He had no ambition to grasp at equality with God.

Another example of a problem is John 1:1

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God.

With no knowledge of Greek, this sentence appears to contradict itself. How can the word be WITH God and also BE God. Can God be with Himself?
But with a quite elementary knowledge of Greek, it is obvious that the word "God" is used in two different ways in this sentence — and the apparent contradiction evaporates.

The pursuit of Greek studies by any serious student of the New Testament is well worth the time and effort.

backwoodsman wrote:
There's certainly nothing wrong with studying Greek or Hebrew if you're so inclined for whatever reason. But if your goal is to understand the Bible better, for most of us the time and effort are better spent studying the Bible and depending on some good reference materials for in-depth language knowledge. The time and effort necessary to get past the point of doing more harm than good with it is just not practical or profitable for most of us.

If you don't know Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek, you're not studying the bible - you're studying an interpretation of the bible.

Remarkable how many people will insist that the bible is the word of G-d, and an authoritative standard for their belief and behavior - yet won't consider learning its languages to be a serious priority. They'll put time and effort into learning taekwondo, or how to rebuild a classic car, or some variety of programming code that may be obsolete in a few years. And yet people will spend decades teaching and preaching "the bible" to others, without the ability to read even its simplest sentences - much less the competence to evaluate whether some "good reference" is leading them down the garden path.

Well said, Kaufmann!

Of course, the opinion expressed above is simply that... an opinion.

I've talked to numerous Hebrew and Greek scholars and asked them the question 'How important is it to know the original languages?' and I've gotten mixed answers. Some think it is essential. Some think it is important. Some think it is merely helpful. Some think it's not that important if one knows how to use the resources.

Sometimes people who are experts on Hebrew or Greek make it sound like once you become an expert there are no more questions about translation. That's a huge myth. The fact is that even if you are the world's foremost expert on Greek, you still have to do some interpretation. Numerous scholars who know the Greek STILL disagree on what the best translation should be. Why? Well, for one, words can be used in a lot of different ways.

I, for one, don't think that God's intention was to reveal Scripture to a small set of people that have the time and resources to learn 1st century Greek (let alone ancient Hebrew). I'm pretty sure God is quite pleased with the variety of translations that have been made by scholars so that any good student can do some digging, see the options, and through prayer and research, come to some good conclusions about what God wants to say in a given text.

I believe a non-Greek student could do his due diligence by using multiple resources in studying a passage and the translation issues involved. Plus, let's face it... in most texts there isn't much at issue. A non-expert can simply read a variety of translations, most of the time, to see if there are major differences and then research the arguments for and against the major translation choices. In fact, a person who uses multiple resources but doesn't know Greek is almost always BETTER OFF than someone who uses no resources and knows a little Greek.

Of course, you can simply write these comments off as the wishful thinking of someone who doesn't know Greek. You're free to do so

I agree with Matt. Of course, this is another "sour grapes" assessment from another person who does not read Greek or Hebrew. I would love to learn, but I need instruction. I have found I can't teach myself from books (tried several times). I have not had opportunity to go to college, where I would have taken classes in Hebrew and Greek, so I am stuck using the resources Matt mentioned.

Sometimes I really would like to discuss a question on Hebrew or Greek usage with a real scholar, but 99% of the time, the consulting of reference works gets the job done. As Matt said, there are original language experts on every side of theological controversies. I don't think the unclearness of a passage usually is resolved by appeal to the Greek. More often, the ambiguity is in the writer himself (or in the theological presuppositions of the reader).

While learning the ancient greek and the hebrew is a noble endeavor the major doctrines which will impact the vast majority of mankind come from the koine greek in the NT, because the meaning of key words is often ambiguous even to the best scholars.

Words like "aion",aionios,hades,gehenna and several others have meanings which are affected by context, the possible symbolism used with the word, what the listeners may have known when they heard it, by the readers thoughts about justice, by the readers thoughts about the character of God, the character of Jesus, by what Jesus said about related matters in other places and by our presuppositions in general and by other factors.

So learning the original language may still not get the clarity hoped for.