Prophets today?

marty
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Prophets today?

Post by marty » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:21 pm

Does anyone know of any true prophetic ministry today? It seems as though men like Leonard Ravenhill, Art Katz etc have not been replaced as they pass on? There are so many so called prophets today that are not hearing the word of the Lord but their own imaginations or worse. Are their any true prophets today?

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steve
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Re: Prophets today?

Post by steve » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:59 am

Excellent question! I will be interested in hearing any forthcoming answers. I don't think I know any.

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TK
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Re: Prophets today?

Post by TK » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:05 am

My wife and I recently stopped attending a church that paid a lot of homage (for lack of a better word) to "prophets" in the mainline charismatic movement. I won't name names. Suffice it to say that I had red flags over the past year or so that I was suppressing because there were some very good things happening. However, there was this mixture of what I call this "prophetic stream" was involved in and the good, Godly things that were happening.

We decided to separate from the congregation, on good terms, because of this mixture. I was able to eat the meat and toss out the bones for a while, but it seemed that the longer we stayed the less meat we had to chew on.

I am going to post a link to a series of three videos that sort of lays out the issues with the present day "prophetic" movement in charismatic circles. I think they are worth watching.

I don't see anyone like Art Katz or Leonard Ravenhill coming forth, yet. I am praying that they will. If anyone has seen or heard anyone, let me know.

Here's the link:

http://enjoyingthejourney.blogspot.com/ ... hurch.html

TK

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jriccitelli
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Re: Prophets today?

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:30 pm

I know of thousands of prophets, I think I can find one in most every church these days.
In fact if anyone is interested; there is a school for prophets where you to can learn to prophesy. There is an upcoming breakfast of Prophets at Zoe ministries. If I simply wanted to receive a prophecy I could request one online here at;
www. Zoe ministries
There is a button that says; 'Click here to receive a free prophecy'
(I am kidding, but about the button, and this School for prophets, and 'Zoe's Bishop E. Bernard Jordan I am not kidding. A look at his website is, well, he takes all major credit cards)

I became very acquainted with the 'doctrine' of Prophets because of my great interest and experience with Mormonism. And shortly after that I attended a Charismatic church for awhile, before I escaped. I attended a morning couples bible study with my wife a few years back and the nice couple leading it were trying to teach us that we can all be prophets.

I believe someone can 'prophesy' but this has been taken way too far in charismatic circles. It is easily manipulated and can cause great deception for the sake of self-endorsement and curiosity. I have seen it used to manipulate and control large groups of people and lead them into deception. I have attended small bible study groups where someone claims to prophesy without verification, and then pass around a hat.

Being 'a Prophet' is a different thing than simply 'prophesying'. If someone claims to be a Prophet and is not, the consequences are that massive groups of people are led into deception ('Prophet' Joseph Smith, Mohammed, and I believe the same applies to the office of the 'Pope', and even visions from the virgin mary) But the 'office' of a prophet may evolve for someone claiming they can make prophecies.

In all my study on 'Prophets' three things seem very clear about biblical prophets:
1. They verified their office of Prophecy (Sometimes with their own blood)
2. They all warned the people to repent, and told them why.
3. They were all Jewish!

The last one seems to be the signature verification.
I asked myself how many Prophets have arisen since Christ? I searched church and world history to see, and although I find hundreds of false prophets it was a 'very' small number of people who have prophesy that could be verified. Throughout the past 2000 years I came up with the Daughters of Phillip, whom Eusebius mentions also. They prophesied but I don’t know if I would classify them as Prophets. Beyond them church history is pretty quiet, until you reach some time later. Although we have a number of interesting people St. Columcille /Columba (521-597), St. Anthony the Abbot (4th Century), St. Senanus (6th Century), St. Malachy O'Morgair (1095?-1148), Anna-Maria Taigi (19th century) they are generally affiliated with other strange teachings, visions, clairvoyance, even mysticism.

There is a 'small 'handful' that you might consider as having some credibility as a Monk whom I forgot his name, and Joan of Arc for example, but for 2000 years I do not see any thing resembling fulfilled prophecy or a biblical sense of conformity.
I think the most revealing thing is that by searching history you see the 'wealth' of false prophets compared with how God has been pretty silent about the office of 'Prophecy' since Jesus and the Apostles.

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Michelle
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Re: Prophets today?

Post by Michelle » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:22 pm

Hi jriccitelli,

I have questions...*
In all my study on 'Prophets' three things seem very clear about biblical prophets:
1. They verified their office of Prophecy (Sometimes with their own blood)
What other ways, besides with their own blood, was their office verified? Do you mean their prophecies came to pass?
2. They all warned the people to repent, and told them why.
mmhmm
3. They were all Jewish!

The last one seems to be the signature verification.
What about Balaam? When I looked him up, I found that in the Rabbinic literature, there are seven who are considered Gentile prophets: Balaam, his father Beor, Job, Job's four friends. I dunno about the other six, but what about Balaam?

I asked myself how many Prophets have arisen since Christ? I searched church and world history to see, and although I find hundreds of false prophets it was a 'very' small number of people who have prophesy that could be verified. Throughout the past 2000 years I came up with the Daughters of Phillip, whom Eusebius mentions also. They prophesied but I don’t know if I would classify them as Prophets.
Why aren't they classified as Prophetesses? How was their office not verified?
Beyond them church history is pretty quiet, until you reach some time later.
What about Agabus?













*I hope you don't mind my inquisitiveness these last few days. I have too much free time, perhaps.

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Paidion
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Re: Prophets today?

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:53 pm

Hi Marty,

Yes, I sat under the ministry of Art Katz for many years. His prophetic ministry was mostly to convict people of sin and to bring about repentance. I often saw people flat on their faces, repenting with all their hearts.

There are a number of Christian circles of fellowship who claim that God has restored the five-fold ministry to the church, id est apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (Ephesians 4:11-14 ESV)

Circles of fellowship who make this claim usually have those who are called apostles and prophets among them, the local church with whom my wife and I meet is part of such a circle. However, we have never heard the apostles of our circle refer to themselves as such. They generally call themselves "travelling elders" and their helpers "travelling deacons".
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Jepne
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Re: Prophets today?

Post by Jepne » Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:35 pm

I am glad you brought this up. I was so terribly grieved when Art Katz died - a voice like his is so needed today. I wonder though, until what he spoke is heeded, why should God raise up another?

I knew a man who seemed similarly gifted but am not sure where he is now, or if it is 'his time', but will look into it some more. Thank you again.
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

marty
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Re: Prophets today?

Post by marty » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:59 pm

Very interesting Paidion. You were indeed privileged to learn from Art. I wish I could have had the opportunity. The fact that no one can name a true major prophet today but many can name dozens of false prophets is very disturbing, and I fear may say volumes about what will come upon this nation and the whole earth shortly. Is God finished warning us and preparing to unleash judgement? Are we at the point where only severe judgement will get the churches (and maybe the worlds) attention? I am so thankful that at least a remnant is sold out to the Master and that God in his mercy may pour out his spirit on these while judgement falls. I do wonder though will it be judgement only, or judgement with some kind of revival?

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jriccitelli
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Re: Prophets today?

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:16 pm

Q. What other ways, besides with their own blood, was their office verified?
Do you mean their prophecies came to pass?

Yes, it seems God had them verify their future prophecies with more immediate signs and fulfillments. Where as the prophets we know less about I grant that the Israelites regarded them as having authenticated their office of Prophet by something which we don’t have written down for us, yet was witnessed by them.

Q. Did all the prophets warn the people to repent?
This may be a slight generality, but only slight. When Jesus, whom I prefer as the greatest prophet, speaks of the ‘Prophets’ I consider that he is speaking 1; of the Prophets that warned the Jews to repent (Since this was Jesus’ message also) and 2; the Prophets that spoke of Him (The promised Messiah, suffering servant, etc).
Most all of the scriptures speak of Christ, but whether or not someone’s words such as Ruth, Boaz and Joseph would qualify them as a prophet is debatable, yet the consistent message throughout scripture, is that the people need to repent. This is certainly the case among the Prophets that have given us more material to read.

Q. What about Job?
Job was either a contemporary of Abraham or lived before Abraham, but we know little of his whereabouts or linage so we can’t know either way as to his relation to Abraham. Jobs friends were, as God said, wrong in some of what they said.

I hate to get down on Rabbinic literature, but I would be rather cautious when using Talmudic and Rabbinic thought as scriptural, as Jesus was critical of their writings also. I like looking at the Talmud but it contains a lot of questionable things.
The Jews hold that Adam, Enoch, Seth, Shem, Eve and Leah were prophets also (Almost everyone for that matter, except Jesus) but I do not see signs of verification and ministries of Prophecy connected to their lives or history.
Just because God uses a person in His ‘His’tory doesn’t qualify the person as a verified Prophet. No more than it verifys Pharaoh was a prophet. Which brings us to Balaam…

Q. What about Balaam?
Not him ‘again’ was my first thought. He is generally brought up when someone wants to point out what a 'bad' prophet is, that’s the usual context of poor old Balaam.
The Jews are quick to use Balaam as an example of a bad prophet, but it is interesting that his oracles are esteemed by the Jews by including them in Numbers 23-24. ‘Much’ could be said about Balaam, but Balaam’s story points to the fact that God can use anyone to ‘speak’. But this does not mean that the prophecy is a word ‘to the Children of God’, for Balaam’s words were to Balak and not to Israel. So, just as God used Abimelech (Genesis 20), Caiaphas (John 11:49) and Pilates wife (Matt 27:19) to Prophesy, they were not confirmed as prophets to Israel (Or the Church) by any continuing ‘office.’ Neither were they ‘looked to’ as Prophets. The same could be said of Balaam, his words were prophetic ‘to Balak’ and they were ‘given to’ Balak. But Israel would not look to Balaam for continuing prophesies because he was untrustworthy and was well known as a Diviner, in whom no Israelite should put faith in.

The truth of the story is that Balaam’s donkey was a better prophet than Balaam. Because Balaam’s cursing did not affect the donkey, and the donkey could see the vision of the Lord where Balaam could not. I don’t think the donkey is in the Jewish lists of biblical prophets, but if our criteria for a prophet doesn’t require much further verification, then the donkey should be included. The story also points out that what God blessed could not be cursed by any prophet, diviner or seer.
(By the way I love the donkey in scripture (A she), and I love him in Shrek also)

I said: Beyond them, church history is pretty quiet, until you reach some time later.
Q. So what about Agabus?
I'm sorry, I meant church history in large, I consider Acts, the people living before Jesus was born, and the Didache as ‘early’ church, and from there until now it has been pretty quiet. The prophets among the Didache are interesting, but I am not convinced much of fulfilled prophecy therein, and whether, or what, to accept in the Didache is difficult to confirm.
I am short on time again so I will only state that giving a prophecy and being renowned as a Prophet are two ‘different’ things, of which ‘much’ discernment must be made. Although the distinction is blurred at times it is not hard to see the difference in ‘Office’ and ministry that the Major and minor biblical prophets held in comparison to the occasional word of God to various people.

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Michelle
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Re: Prophets today?

Post by Michelle » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:55 pm

Hi jriccitelli, blessings in the new year!

I want to sincerely thank you for entertaining my questions! You've responded clearly and thoroughly. Apparently this is a subject about which many people have vast, yet varying, knowledge and opinions. I have neither knowledge nor opinions, just questions, and, therefore, I should probably just read more before I interrupt. You've given me a lot to think about and look into. Thanks again!
you wrote:Q. What about Balaam?
Not him ‘again’ was my first thought.
Sorry.

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