Bible references...

[johnb]

Hi all,

I was looking for specific passages that would be relative to the questions below. In other words, where can it be found in the Bible? Historical references and additional comments are welcomed but I am mainly looking for some biblical references. There may be an experience you have had that relates to one of these questions, if so, can the principal be found in the Bible somewhere? I was looking for both Old & New Testament references for each question if possible…

1. Does the Lord speak or reveal something to the leaders of His people first and then secondly to the laymen, or is there an instance where He has first spoken or revealed something to the laymen and then secondly to the leaders?

2. If the gospel is being preached is the Spirit always present? If He is, is it possible that the He could want to be released or revealed in more ways than just when the gospel is being preached?

3. A.W. Tozer said...
“It is altogether possible to be instructed in the rudiments of the faith and still have no real understanding of the whole thing”..."And it is possible to go on to become expert in bible doctrine and not have spiritual illumination, with the result that a veil remains over the mind, prevent it from apprehending the truth in its spiritual essence." ...
If Tozer is correct, what scriptures would support his statement?

[RICHinCHRIST]

1. Does the Lord speak or reveal something to the leaders of His people first and then secondly to the laymen, or is there an instance where He has first spoken or revealed something to the laymen and then secondly to the leaders?

I think the answer in the Old Testament is the former, and perhaps its the same in the New Testament.

When the Lord raised up judges to give spiritual direction to Israel, it was often that He spoke His will to them first. Deborah spoke as if she knew what God had commanded (Judges 4:6). God also commissioned Gideon for a purpose and revealed His heart to him as a leader to vindicate Israel from the Midianites (Judges 6:14-16).

It also seems as though the leaders of Israel were given special insight into the will of God. Eli spoke to Samuel as though he had similar experiences of "hearing the voice of God" when Samuel was first spoken to by the Lord (1 Sam. 3:9). Perhaps God spoke to the high priest or other priests in this way before He spoke to Israel's common people. Samuel was chosen to speak with God for the people. God spoke His will to Samuel and Samuel was responsible for sharing the heart of God with the people (1 Sam. 7:8, 8:10). King David had the ability to call on God. This was apparently through the "ephod" (1 Sam. 23:9; 30:7). Before him, King Saul apparently had received messages from God by either the Urim and Thummim, dreams, or through prophets (1 Sam. 28:6).

We have no indication that God spoke to people in the Old Testament unless He was commissioning them for some leadership role or if they were prophets. Most leaders were prophets and received messages from God. Perhaps He did speak to the 'laymen' but we do not have any evidence that He did. Perhaps they were just expected to follow their leader's advice and keep to the traditions of the law as they were commanded by Moses. Or if they had a specific request to hear from God, they could ask a prophet in their region to ask the Lord on their behalf.

In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit was involved and it is difficult to say how much the Holy Spirit spoke to individuals. Whether it was mostly by impressions or through other revelation, we don't know. We do know that the Holy Spirit had some way to communicate to Paul and Barnabas to not travel into Asia although we don't know if that was through communicating to them or by just allowing certain circumstances to keep them from traveling that direction (Acts 16:7). Jesus promised the apostles that the Holy Spirit would speak to them what would come in the future (John 16:13), but it is difficult to say that this promise is for all Christians or if it was solely for the apostles.

2. If the gospel is being preached is the Spirit always present? If He is, is it possible that the He could want to be released or revealed in more ways than just when the gospel is being preached?

I would assume that the Spirit is always present, that is, if the true gospel is being preached. The Spirit's role is to 'convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment' and I would think that the Spirit's work would be always happening since God never rests.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Spirit being 'released or revealed' in more ways than when the gospel is being preached. I wouldn't want to say that God couldn't do anything else (because He can do whatever He pleases if He chooses to), but it seems that God has chosen to use the method of preaching to cut the heart of the listener to bring about repentance and faith (Acts 2:37-39). Paul also said that 'faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God' (Rom. 10:17). In that context, Paul is speaking about preachers being sent to the unbelieving world so that they might be won to Christ (Rom. 10:14-15). Regeneration by the Holy Spirit is always preceded by faith. Faith cannot come unless they first hear the message of Christ's salvation. Although I'm sure God, if He chose to, could radically pour out His Spirit and convince people, similar to Paul's Damascus road experience, for some reason, He chooses not to do that with everyone. He uses the message of the gospel and its impact on the individual's heart to bring about a personal response in the person's free will if they will choose faith in Christ. I don't know of God using any other methods but then again I haven't studied many revival accounts so it's possible that God has done other things than using the gospel being preached to convince minds and bring them to faith and subsequent regeneration. Perhaps there is some other method used in unreached people groups where there are no missionaries or preachers.

3. A.W. Tozer said...
“It is altogether possible to be instructed in the rudiments of the faith and still have no real understanding of the whole thing”..."And it is possible to go on to become expert in bible doctrine and not have spiritual illumination, with the result that a veil remains over the mind, prevent it from apprehending the truth in its spiritual essence." ...
If Tozer is correct, what scriptures would support his statement?

I think this is true. Look at Israel in the first century. They knew the Old Testament so well, they memorized Moses' words, they were expecting the Messiah, but yet they still rejected Jesus and murdered Him for no wrongs He had personally committed. They had the head knowledge, but they had no real heart that sought after God. They were self-seeking and not seeking the glory of God which was revealed in Christ.

Some Scriptures to consider could be:


Mere knowledge only puffs up the mind, but brings no growth or spiritual edification in the heart. It's possible to study the Bible like a chemistry or math textbook and have all the answers yet miss the ultimate goal of the glory of God or of Christian living.




Here we learn of a veil that remained on the first century Jews who rejected the gospel. They had the knowledge of the Bible but yet had no spiritual illumination or understanding of what really mattered in Christ. They were hindered in the spiritual realm. This veil didn't cover their intellectual understanding of spiritual things, but their heart's spiritual perception of the realities of these things.

[Suzana]

To Rich's comprehensive answer, I would also suggest perhaps adding (re. point 3) -

Matthew 13:14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; (NKJV)

[Michelle]

Hi all,

I was looking for specific passages that would be relative to the questions below. In other words, where can it be found in the Bible? Historical references and additional comments are welcomed but I am mainly looking for some biblical references. There may be an experience you have had that relates to one of these questions, if so, can the principal be found in the Bible somewhere? I was looking for both Old & New Testament references for each question if possible…

Hi, johnb!

1. Does the Lord speak or reveal something to the leaders of His people first and then secondly to the laymen, or is there an instance where He has first spoken or revealed something to the laymen and then secondly to the leaders?

Laymen, eh? By this you mean anyone other than leaders? And by "speak or reveal something" do you mean any kind of revelation or message? Here are some laymen (I think, Rich seems to have a different perspective on some of these):

Gideon He was threshing wheat in the winepress hiding out from the Midianites when the angel of the Lord appeared to him and told him the Lord was with him and that he would defeat the Midianites. Gideon answered that he was from the weakest clan of Mannasseh and that he was the least of his father's house. (Judges 6) It doesn't seem like he was a leader at that point. In fact, when the people asked him to be their ruler, he refused, but made a costly error of judgement. (Judges 8)

Manoah and his wife Not leaders. (Judges 13)

Samuel He was still young when the Lord spoke to him. (1 Samuel 3) I don't think you could consider him a leader at the time the Lord revealed what He was going to do about Eli's house.

Simon Peter He wasn't a leader when the Father revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. (Matthew 16)

2. If the gospel is being preached is the Spirit always present? If He is, is it possible that the He could want to be released or revealed in more ways than just when the gospel is being preached?

I'm confused by these questions because the second question doesn't seem to follow from the first. In the first question you emphasized the word always by underlining it, but the second question seems to be asking if the Holy Spirit is only released or revealed during the preaching of the gospel. And the words released and revealed when used regarding the Holy Spirit are hard for me to understand.

I think the answer to the first question is "yes."

3. A.W. Tozer said...
“It is altogether possible to be instructed in the rudiments of the faith and still have no real understanding of the whole thing”..."And it is possible to go on to become expert in bible doctrine and not have spiritual illumination, with the result that a veil remains over the mind, prevent it from apprehending the truth in its spiritual essence." ...
If Tozer is correct, what scriptures would support his statement?

I like the scriptures Rich and Suzanne provided. I would add

[johnb]

You guys are awesome! Thank you for your responses.
I'll continue to pray and meditate on these things.

The questions stemmed form a conversation my wife and I had with a pastor of the church we go to. My wife has felt for several months that the Spirit wants to move in more ways in our congregation. She doesn't fully understand what these impressions mean exactly - maybe the congregation is ready to move away from milk and go on to solid food (Heb 5:12-14), or maybe something is "hindering" Him in some way (Mark 6:5)...we dunno.?.
The pastor we were talking to had some concerns. He didn't know why the Spirit would give a message to someone who wasn't in a leadership position (a laymen) because he stated if the Spirit wanted to do something He would probably let the leadership know first. That made me think of the Tozer quote and so I thought I'd ask while I was at it. Also, He brought up that our church preaches the gospel and the Bible says that where the gospel is preached the Spirit is present so He didn't understand what more the Spirit could want to do.

Our conversation was very respectful and we plan to talk again in the next few weeks.

[steve]

Hi John,

Your last explanation helps me understand where you were going in asking the original questions.

1. There is no reason to assume that men who hold an office in a church are truly spiritual "leaders." They might be, but it is equally possible that men in such positions would be merely professional religionists. Their spirituality (a major factor in being a spiritual leader) is another issue, and is not a "given."

In any case, even a true spiritual leader knows that he will not be the only one in the church who may hear from or sense the concerns of the Spirit of God. Every Christian possesses the Holy Spirit, and thus any Christian might be in touch with the mind of the Spirit in any given instance. The man who holds office in the church does not have the monopoly on knowing God. That is the primary difference between God's dealings in the Old Testament and the New Testament. In the Old Testament, the people heard from God only (or almost exclusively) through appointed prophets and leaders, whereas, in the New Testament, the Spirit is given to everyone ("all flesh"), so that "Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" (Acts 2:17-18/Heb.8:10-11).

2. To think that the preaching of the gospel is the only concern that the Spirit may have for the ministry of the church is a rather bizarre position to take, since there is nothing in scripture that says the gospel should even be preached in the church (the gospel is to be preached to unbelievers, outside the church), and the ministry of the church is to involve the varied gifts of every member contributing what God give him or her to give for the edification of the Christians (see Romans 12:6-8/1 Corinthians 12:1-31/ Eph.4:11-13/ 1 Peter 4:10-11). If all the body were a mouth (and only one man's mouth, at that!), then where were the giving, the serving, the outreach, the teaching, the prophesying, the mercy ministry, etc.?

3. Tozer is clearly in agreement with Paul, who, in addition to teaching the correct doctrines, also prayed that the Holy Spirit would illuminate the hearers, giving them "revelelation in the knowledge of Him" (Eph.1:15-18). Paul did not trust even his own teaching ability to be able to get across to the people what only the Spirit of God's illumination could impart.

[TK]

I agree with Steve 100% on this one.

JohnB- the one thing that really concerns me is your pastor's attitude. The fact that he said what he said raises red flags-- at least it would for me, big time.

Sometimes members of a congregation can "outgrow" (for lack of a better word) the church they attend (which usually means the church leadership). I think this is especially true in the plethora of "seeker friendly" churches out there today.

TK

[johnb]

Thanks again for the responses.

Just as an interesting follow up:
My wife is a stay-at-home mom and once or twice a week she gets together with other stay-at-home mothers from our church and just hangs out and lets all the kiddos play together. A few days ago she went to have some 'hang out time' with 2 of the other mothers. Well, my wife had not previously let anyone know about the Spirit giving her the impression of wanting to move in more ways. However, while the ladies were talking, the other 2 mothers started talking about the exact same experience that my wife had and how they also felt an impression that the Spirit wants to move in more and deeper ways in our congregation. In fact one of the mothers had previously talked to a 3rd mother who had similar impressions as well, so much so that they were thinking about attending a second church just so they could have deeper and more meaningful worship times.

Just a bit of confirmation for my wife..…3 to be exact…..in the same day.

God is so good.