Recent sermon series - Why America's Broken

[darinhouston]

My pastor is on week two of a series he calls "Why America is Broken." If you're interested, it is "here" http://second.org/en/Woodway/MediaCente ... 930AM.aspx

I'm not sure it belongs in the pulpit, and may belong more on Fox News (except for the spiritual aspects) but it's an excellent civics lesson and commentary on what's wrong today (last week was focus on Washington). Until now, it's been largely critical and judgmental of the "world" around us for "losing its way" and "turning from God," but he hit the punch line or fulcrum of the series at the conclusion of the last sermon by turning to us in the church and our own role in the thing -- he cited 2 Chronicles 7:14

"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

for the proposition that the government won't get fixed until we turn back to God. I think that this is a misapplication of that verse, and that we can't presently "claim" that verse for our nation. Consider my recent response to a friend who also attends my church:

I missed that sermon due to nursery duty and finally got around to listening to it -- I'm glad the series has come to the punch line and he has called the church to account rather than merely criticizing the secular government for"losing its way" (what else can we expect, really from a secular government?) One thing to consider is whether we can claim" 2 Chron for our "land." This was said to a people who were a nation itself identified as God's peculiar people and having a "nation/land" that was supposed to reflect that reality. Our land (more like Egypt or Babylon perhaps) is not in the same category (as much as we appreciate its protections and foundations). We didn't hear the prophets telling Israel in those situations either before or after their "nation" was established to right themselves with God in order to cure Egypt or Babylon of their "lost way," but so that God's people, themselves, would be the sort of example that they were called to be (and that they remain in that role in God's plan). Even before they were "God's nation" Moses came to rescue God's people so that they could maintain their separate identity and become that separate kingdom (yet now to be a spiritual Kingdom living within a secular world) - this was not so Pharaoh or Babylon would rule differently, it was so that God's people would be seen rightly. I think our present problem is that the secular world has grown tired of "pretending" to be "Christian" and we Christians need to realize that the comfortable "middle-ground" shared by well-meaning secular America in the past where all we needed to do was avoid "gross sin" and name Jesus and go to church to be considered "Christian" is not where we are called to be. We need to rejoice that the lines are becoming more clear between Christians and the world, and recognize that our true nationality lies in another "Kingdom," and recall that we are only pilgrims or ambassadors here rather than trying to get the secular world around us to return to the neutral middle ground that only "looks" Christian. He establishes and maintains "all governments" and I think He will allow the US to remain a nation as long as it serves His purposes regardless of how it governs. However, we should still be that example and "render unto Caesar" while we do what we can to influence our nation (as a separate matter) and our neighbors to be just and right towards all people, but I think we should disabuse ourselves of the notion that this government is or ever has been somehow "God's nation" in the sense that Israel was. Basically, I think we should see the "Church" today as the broken nation that needs humility and healing, and not our government. I look forward to the rest of the series to see where it goes.

What do you think?

[TK]

Darin wrote:

2 Chronicles 7:14 wrote:
"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

[he cited that verse] for the proposition that the government won't get fixed until we turn back to God. I think that this is a misapplication of that verse, and that we can't presently "claim" that verse for our nation.

but darin- then you would be removing a pet verse from the evangelical arsenal. i hear it in the context your pastor used it every other week it seems.

TK

[Jill]

.

[selah]

The LDS has all but been wiped off Baptist moderated forums, and this one is no exception. Nor is the TNP 1-800 number available to LDS karen from Portland.

Seriously I'm surprised!

Selah

[darinhouston]

The LDS has all but been wiped off Baptist moderated forums, and this one is no exception. Nor is the TNP 1-800 number available to LDS karen from Portland. A suggested reply encouraged.

Seriously, I don't understand.

[steve]

The LDS has all but been wiped off Baptist moderated forums, and this one is no exception. Nor is the TNP 1-800 number available to LDS karen from Portland. A suggested reply encouraged.

I don't know what this means either. We have never banned the LDS from discussing their views here. I have never had any objection to a person sharing LDS beliefs (we have other regular participants with views even further from orthodox Christian beliefs than Mormonism). The only time I ever objected to Karen/Jill's posts had nothing to do with her beliefs, it had to do with the incoherency of the posts themselves. I often could not understand what the post was about, or what it had to do with the topic under discussion on the thread where it had been posted. Most of these confusing threads (so far as I could make out) had nothing to do with LDS beliefs. They were on other topics altogether.

On the other hand, we have an entire topic category here on the forum for LDS discussions. I have never heard (nor do I have) any objection to that category being included, nor to any of the posts that have been posted there.

As for the 800-number, I have not instructed my call-screener to discriminate against any callers on any basis. There are no banned callers, so I don't know what this is referring to. There is another listener, from Wichita who has twice contacted me and said that when he calls the show he lets it ring and ring, and no one answers. I have asked my call-screener about this, and he is not aware of missing calls. I would like for Jill/Karen to explain why she thinks she has been banned from the phone line.

[Suzana]

My pastor is on week two of a series he calls "Why America is Broken." If you're interested, it is "here" http://second.org/en/Woodway/MediaCente ... 930AM.aspx

I'm not sure it belongs in the pulpit, and may belong more on Fox News (except for the spiritual aspects) but it's an excellent civics lesson and commentary on what's wrong today (last week was focus on Washington). Until now, it's been largely critical and judgmental of the "world" around us for "losing its way" and "turning from God," but he hit the punch line or fulcrum of the series at the conclusion of the last sermon by turning to us in the church and our own role in the thing -- he cited 2 Chronicles 7:14

"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

for the proposition that the government won't get fixed until we turn back to God. I think that this is a misapplication of that verse, and that we can't presently "claim" that verse for our nation. Consider my recent response to a friend who also attends my church:

I missed that sermon due to nursery duty and finally got around to listening to it -- I'm glad the series has come to the punch line and he has called the church to account rather than merely criticizing the secular government for"losing its way" (what else can we expect, really from a secular government?) One thing to consider is whether we can claim" 2 Chron for our "land." This was said to a people who were a nation itself identified as God's peculiar people and having a "nation/land" that was supposed to reflect that reality. Our land (more like Egypt or Babylon perhaps) is not in the same category (as much as we appreciate its protections and foundations). We didn't hear the prophets telling Israel in those situations either before or after their "nation" was established to right themselves with God in order to cure Egypt or Babylon of their "lost way," but so that God's people, themselves, would be the sort of example that they were called to be (and that they remain in that role in God's plan). Even before they were "God's nation" Moses came to rescue God's people so that they could maintain their separate identity and become that separate kingdom (yet now to be a spiritual Kingdom living within a secular world) - this was not so Pharaoh or Babylon would rule differently, it was so that God's people would be seen rightly. I think our present problem is that the secular world has grown tired of "pretending" to be "Christian" and we Christians need to realize that the comfortable "middle-ground" shared by well-meaning secular America in the past where all we needed to do was avoid "gross sin" and name Jesus and go to church to be considered "Christian" is not where we are called to be. We need to rejoice that the lines are becoming more clear between Christians and the world, and recognize that our true nationality lies in another "Kingdom," and recall that we are only pilgrims or ambassadors here rather than trying to get the secular world around us to return to the neutral middle ground that only "looks" Christian. He establishes and maintains "all governments" and I think He will allow the US to remain a nation as long as it serves His purposes regardless of how it governs. However, we should still be that example and "render unto Caesar" while we do what we can to influence our nation (as a separate matter) and our neighbors to be just and right towards all people, but I think we should disabuse ourselves of the notion that this government is or ever has been somehow "God's nation" in the sense that Israel was. Basically, I think we should see the "Church" today as the broken nation that needs humility and healing, and not our government. I look forward to the rest of the series to see where it goes.

What do you think?

I think I agree with you, that we cannot claim 2 Chronicles for our particular country today, and that it was specific to Israel under the old covenant.
On the other hand we need to remember Paul's exhortation to Timothy, which would I think apply to us today:

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


But that is a somewhat different agenda than espoused by the preaching example above, though I suppose having an environment where it's possible to 'lead a quiet and peaceable life' might be argued to be one manifestation of having our land 'healed'. (?)