Reincarnation question

[Douglas]

I hesitate to even bring up such a topic as reincarnation as it has always been viewed by all professing Christians I have talked to before as heretical, to say the least. Even to the point of "how could you even entertain such a thought?" But I know most people on this forum are kind, even when ideas are way out there.

Well, I have always been one to "think outside the box", so here it goes.

I always wondered about babies that die at childbirth or are aborted or even children who die before they have reached an "age of accountability" as some would put it. Most I have talked to say they go to heaven. But does the Bible say that? Where in the Bible does it tell us that babies go to "heaven" immediately?, bypassing any judgment since they are either to young to make any choice for Christ, or for example, an aborted baby that has not even sinned yet, IMO, what happens to them?

A thought I had was that they maybe are "reincarnated" back into a developing fetus again and continue to "go again with this life on earth" and continue until at which time they are old enough and able to make a choice.

Along those lines, Is it possible that those who had not come to Christ and rejected Him could continue to "cycle" on this sin filled earth until they finally submit to Christ and are regenerated, that is "born again". After which time then they go to be present with the Lord.

Although with Heb 9:27 this all may be a mute point. Maybe... As it appears that man only dies once, but exactly how that should be understood I could see several possibilities. Maybe..

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

Could it be that we live and then physically die someday, and then the judgment is either being in the presence of the Lord forever, or being thrown into outer darkness, the lake of fire, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. And could that "hell" be living life on earth without knowing God yet? That is those who have not yet submitted to Christ. For life here and now without Christ I think would be a living hell (JUDGMENT) with a purpose to eventually persuade individuals to come to Christ. Some require greater persuasion than others.

Or is Heb 9:27 basically saying you get only one chance (that is this life only) and then judgment which does not allow for any repentance?

I am not saying it is one way or the other, I don't know. Just wondering what are your thoughts? Or am I the only one who ponders such things?

Doug

[Suzana]

May I kindly say that I for one certainly find this idea as way waaaay out there!

My thoughts are that it would be strange for the Scriptures to be so silent about this, if it were true.

And the logistics are mind-boggling – for instance - if one soul occupied several different bodies at different times, I wonder which one would be chosen at the resurrection, and then you would have person-less bodies left behind...

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.


(And this happens at the same time for all) -

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Then you might have different sets of relatives trying to claim the same person....or they would just be missing, there would be no continuity...and one person not being a unique individual with their own special genetic heritage, but several entirely different persons (which seems to be an impossible contradiction of terms anyway) – and just imagine how schizophrenic they would feel!

If God allowed everyone to go through cycles of rebirths until they were regenerated, then there wouldn't be any need for a final judgement day, and there wouldn't be anyone unrighteous left, but the scriptures seem to speak of both these things happening.

Of course as curious human beings, it’s natural to ponder about heaven and the afterlife, and wonder about things that aren’t openly addressed in scripture; but I think the speculation of this particular theory seems to go too far into a scripturally un-supported direction.
As to how God might deal with babies and children who have died prematurely, I am content to trust that God has a perfectly just & loving solution, even if He hasn’t seen fit to reveal the details to us.

[Douglas]

You are probably right Suzana, I probably think about things too much.

[Jill]

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[Paidion]

Interesting thoughts, Douglas.

Although I disbelieve in reincarnation, it seems that the Pharisees of Jesus' day believed in it, even Christ's disciples!

John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

Now how could the man have sinned so that he was born blind unless he did so in a previous incarnation?

Concerning your question about those who die as babies, and those who die as fetuses before they are born:

Since I don't believe anybody goes to heaven at death, the problem is a little different for me. I believe we all stay dead until our personal resurrection. My guess is that babies and aborted fetuses will be resurrected at the same stage in which they died. Since resurrected bodies are so dissimilar to mortal bodies (I Cor 15), it is not necessary that the fetuses continue to grow in someone's womb. But God can cause them to grow, and who knows how fast that might be? It may not take months, it may take only hours, or even minutes! In any case, my opinion is that these fetuses as well as the infant children will grow up until they arrive at the ideal age of about 30, the age at which they will remain forever. Those who die at 70, 80, or 90, will also be resurrected at the same age, but will gradually grow younger until they reach the ideal age of 30.

[Michelle]

Interesting thoughts, Douglas.

Although I disbelieve in reincarnation, it seems that the Pharisees of Jesus' day believed in it, even Christ's disciples!

John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

Now how could the man have sinned so that he was born blind unless he did so in a previous incarnation?

Paidion,

Do you mind if I ask you about this? (My apologies, Douglas, if this takes your thread far off-topic!) Do you have any other sources which make you believe that the Pharisees, and even the disciples, believed in reincarnation? I was startled to read this, so I looked on J.P.Holding's Tektonics site (here) and Glen Miller's Christian Think Tank (here.) Both articles have titles referencing the early church, but the Pharisees' are mentioned as well. I have never studied this argument and have only read these two short articles, so I welcome any correction you may be able to give me.

To me it is not necessary to read reincarnation in that passage, and I believe this passage is often used to develop the teaching of original sin. As I understand it, there was a belief during that time (as well as in other times, perhaps even today) that physical disability was always, or nearly always, the result of specific sin. In order to get around the fact that some people come into the world with birth defects, it had been accepted that the sins of the parents or grandparents were visited on the children. It was this belief that the disciples were asking about, bringing up the man's condition since birth because of the impossibility that he could have sinned to cause his blindness, therefore forcing the conclusion that it was his parents' or grandparents' sin that he was bearing responsibility for.

Jesus blew away that misconception. Wouldn't he have also taken the opportunity to correct them if they indeed had an erroneous idea about returning to earth for another go around?

Concerning your question about those who die as babies, and those who die as fetuses before they are born:

Since I don't believe anybody goes to heaven at death, the problem is a little different for me. I believe we all stay dead until our personal resurrection. My guess is that babies and aborted fetuses will be resurrected at the same stage in which they died. Since resurrected bodies are so dissimilar to mortal bodies (I Cor 15), it is not necessary that the fetuses continue to grow in someone's womb. But God can cause them to grow, and who knows how fast that might be? It may not take months, it may take only hours, or even minutes! In any case, my opinion is that these fetuses as well as the infant children will grow up until they arrive at the ideal age of about 30, the age at which they will remain forever. Those who die at 70, 80, or 90, will also be resurrected at the same age, but will gradually grow younger until they reach the ideal age of 30.

30 you say? Yeah, 30 was pretty nice.

About fetuses: ever since we had this same discussion a couple of years ago, it has come to my mind from time to time. I remember that the first time around I said that I wasn't looking forward to being pregnant in heaven, or on the New Earth, or wherever. In this life, I had difficult pregnancies and excruciating deliveries, but got to thinking that if part of the curse was increased pain in childbirth, perhaps originally it was meant to be a breeze and being pregnant on a restored Earth would be what it was meant to be. I know this is all speculation, but I've come to kind of think that carrying the one I lost to term might be a delight in the hereafter. Who knows?

[Paidion]

Josephus said that the Pharisees believe that "the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies, but that the souls of bad men are subject to lasting punishment." (Wars of the Jews 2.164)

Another statement of Josephus:

The bodies of all men are, indeed, mortal, and are created out of corruptible matter; but the soul is ever immortal, and is a portion of the divinity that inhabits our bodies. . . . Do not you know, that those who depart out of this life according to the laws of nature . . . enjoy eternal fame; that their houses and posterity are sure; that their souls are pure and obedient, and obtain a most holy place in heaven, from whence, in the revolution of ages, they are again sent . . . into bodies; while the souls of those whose hands have acted madly against themselves are received by the darkest place in Hades?

[Michelle]

Those sites I linked to said that what Josephus was referring to was the Pharisees' teaching on the resurrection and the new bodies the righteous would receive then.

[Paidion]

Yes, I read that explanation, too. Did those sites mention the quote (in blue) which I added to my post?

[Paidion]

From the Apocrypha:

"Now I was a child good by nature, and a good soul fell to my lot. Nay,rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled." (The Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20)