The Narrow Path Ministries

One proof text for the eternity of Hell:

Young's literal, Rev.14:11

"and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name."

First, it does not say that they (humans) are tormented for the ages. But that the smoke of their torment (which can be the smoke of a past event) rises forever . Second, does the ages of the ages mean eternal? possible. Or it could mean a limited amount of time.

The fact that it is a limited amount of time can be proven, I believe. If you look at the cross reference in you bible you will see that John borrows this language from Isaiah. So let's look at that text:

Isaiah 34:9,10

And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

This is speaking of the destruction of Edom. Which was destroyed by the Nabaten Arabs around 500 B.C.

1. Edom was located where southern Israel and southern Jordan now are.

2. It says that the burning pitch of the land shall not be quenched and the smoke of that fire will rise forever. But is that so? No you can go there today (just as in John's day) and see that it is not so. The land is not burning neither is the smoke rising.

3. It says that no one will ever pass through that land - yet people pass through it everyday, and even live there.

You see this is figurative language for destruction. And since John borrowed language that he knew did not have an eternal implication it is doubtful that he had eternity in mind either.

Hi James,
This is probably correct. Much of the imagery popularly associated with "eternal torment" is borrowed from Old Testament passages wherein the language does not seem to refer to eternal torment—e.g., "the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44, 46, 48) is taken from Isaiah 66:24, where, in context, it can hardly be a reference to "hell." I think Isaiah 66 is about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and Jesus' words in Mark 9 might also be about that judgment. Unquenchable fire is a common expression for the judgment of God on Jerusalem in 586 BC (e.g., Jer.4:4; 7:20; 17:27; 21:12).

I guess this raises the question, which I will leave to others to answer, What IS the biblical basis for the belief in eternal torment?

I guess this raises the question, which I will leave to others to answer, What IS the biblical basis for the belief in eternal torment?

Well Steve, let me ask you - what are your two (for now) best proof texts for eternal conscious torment?

Anonymous wrote:I guess this raises the question, which I will leave to others to answer, What IS the biblical basis for the belief in eternal torment?

Well Steve, let me ask you - what are your two (for now) best proof texts for eternal conscious torment?

BTW Steve, that was me, james - I still haven't gotten a new password...

Hi James,

You've been trying to nail me down on this one for years, haven't you? :-)

I don't know if there are two scriptures that I think are really decisive in favor of the eternal torment view, which is why I left it to others to present them. The ones we discussed above have usually been considered central to the case, but, as you can see, they are capable of another interpretation that has nothing to do with eternal torment.

Many would favor the use of 2 Thess.1:9 to prove this point:

"These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

While this seems, at first glance, to speak of everlasting punishment, it actually does not really mention that concept. It speaks of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. Whether this "destruction" is conscious or unconscious is not clearly stated. Destruction could mean "annihilation," but the modifier, "from the presence of the Lord" may suggest that the destruction means something more like "ruin" (in the sense of alienation from God), as some have suggested. In any case, even if "destruction" did not mean annihilation, it would not necessarily have to be taken as a state of on-going consciousness.

Matthew 25:41 & 46 actually DO use the expressions "everlasting fire" and "everlasting punishment", but as in every case of the use of "eternal" or "everlasting", the Greek word for these terms, "aionios," (according to many scholars) literally means "unto the ages" or "age-enduring." While such an expression may certainly refer to something that is endless, it might also simply speak of something of very long duration.

There are instances in scripture where aionios does not mean "eternal." In Romans 16:25, the words "chronois aioniois" [times eternal (unto the ages)] is traditionally translated "since the world began" (NKJV). This is talking about the fact that the mystery of the gospel was “forever” previously kept secret, but is now revealed to the apostles. The point is that this “hiddenness” was not an endless condition, but one that ended with the revelation of the same mystery to the apostles. The expression "before time began" (2 Tim.1:9/Titus 1:2 NKJV), is actually "apo chronon aionion" [before time age-abiding]. This seems to speak of "duration...undefined but not endless' (Vine).

Sodom and Gomorrah, according to Jude, suffered the vengeance of "eternal (aionios) fire" (Jude 7), which, in the parallel statement in 2 Peter 2:6, is simply described as "destruction."

Of the wicked, in general, we are told that their "end is destruction" (Phil.3:19) and their "end is to be burned" (Heb.6:8). Both passages speak of the wicked having an "end." In my opinion, it would be possible to find some way of harmonizing these verses with the idea of eternal torment, but I don't think it is their most natural meaning.

In other words, if a totally uninitiated reader, who had never heard of the eternal torment view, were to read these verses, I do not think he would derive such a view from them. They can be read in light of such a view only if there are straightforward statements elsewhere that determine that this is the correct view.

It is often argued that, since aionios is the word that speaks of God's gift of “everlasting” life to believers (e.g., John 6:40), and since possession of this life means we will "never die" (John 6:50), that this establishes the usage of the word aionios to mean "endless" or "eternal." But this really only establishes this meaning in the case of "aionios life." It does not prove that the word cannot in other instances speak of something "abiding unto the ages"—yet having some end eventually. Something that lasts for thousands of years, and something that lasts forever, might both justly be referred to as "abiding unto the ages." At least it seems so to me.

I may be forgetting some passages, but so far as I can wrack my brain to recall, there are none that speak of the concept of eternal punishment more clearly than do the verses discussed above.

I suppose the main concept that most would fall back on is that man possesses an immortal soul, and is therefore by nature an eternal being. If this is so, then those who do not spend eternity with God must live out eternity somewhere else. There are some, however, who challenge this assumption. They say that the immortality of the soul is a concept introduced by Greek philosophy, and is not taught in scripture. They have a good case, in view of Jesus' statement that God "is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]" (Matthew 10:28) and Paul's assertion that God "alone possesses immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16).

I have always been raised to believe in the eternal torment view of hell, and have defended it in my earlier years. I am still prepared to accept it as the correct view, if the scriptures can be shown to unequivocally teach it. Even if it is not made completely clear, it still could be true, but the case in scripture for it is much weaker than is the case for most major doctrines.

I guess my bottom line is, regardless which view of punishment of sinners turns out to be true, the Bible teaches quite emphatically that it will be an experience to be avoided at all costs (Matt.5:29-30). If it turned out that the lost were not eternally tormented, but (as the “conditional immortality” people say) they were instead given punishment proportionate to their guilt and then annihilated, or (as “evangelical universalists” say) they were to be punished until they were reformed, and then admitted to heaven—would any Christian object to this?

It seems to me that heaven would be a happier place for those of us who have lost unconverted loved ones if one of these options turned out to be true and the eternal torment view turned out to be a mere Roman Catholic tradition (as some claim it is). Of course, we are not permitted to choose our theology on the basis of our preferences, but since there appears to be room for doubt, might we not hope for the best?

Hey Steve, I agree with much that you said. Let me add a couple of thoughts:

Matt 25:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

A clue here may be the word "punishment."

kolasis comes from kolazo, literally to lop off or prune. To cut off forever seems quite probable. Which does not necessarily mean conscious eternal torment.

And the eternal fire of Jude could simply be pointing to the fact that the fire has it's source in the eternal God. Not that what will be thrown into it lives forever. Even the example of Sodom shows this point - it received said "eternal fire" but is not burning today. The "eternal fire," like the unquenchable fire, did it's job and destroyed it's intended target.

Just stumbled on this looking for something else. Seemed interesting.

Thanks for bringing this thread up again, Steve 7150. I had never encountered it before.

Just a word about "kolasis." It's original meaning was indeed to "lop" or "prune". When pruning a plant, one is correcting its growth. The Greekk word came to mean, metaphorically, "correction". This is given as a meaning in Greek lexicons.

Other than Mt 25:46, the word occurs in only one other place in the NT:

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear because fear has correction, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

Fear has correction. There is a correction, or solution, for fear ----- loving! In order that fear might be corrected in a person, it is necessary that such a person be perfected (completed) in love.

"Perfect love casts out fear because fear has punishment," doesn't seem to make any sense.

“Everyone Shall Be Salted With Fire”

Mark 9:49

If you die in your sins, if you perish without Christ, you will be cast into hell to suffer the everlasting, indescribable horror of the wrath of God. There the worm of your tormenting conscience will relentlessly gnaw at your soul. There the fires of God’s wrath will burn forever. The fires of God’s wrath in hell will do the same thing that salt does to the flesh of slaughtered animals. As the salt preserves the flesh from putrefaction and corruption, so the fires of hell, while burning, torturing, and tormenting you, will preserve your body and soul in being. In other words, the very fire that burns you will keep you from being consumed. Your soul shall never die. Your body will not consume away. You will lose none of your powers, faculties, or senses. Rather, they shall all be intensified! That is what our Lord means by you being salted with fire and the fire being unquenchable!

gracemonger wrote:“Everyone Shall Be Salted With Fire”

Mark 9:49

If you die in your sins, if you perish without Christ, you will be cast into hell to suffer the everlasting, indescribable horror of the wrath of God. There the worm of your tormenting conscience will relentlessly gnaw at your soul. There the fires of God’s wrath will burn forever. The fires of God’s wrath in hell will do the same thing that salt does to the flesh of slaughtered animals. As the salt preserves the flesh from putrefaction and corruption, so the fires of hell, while burning, torturing, and tormenting you, will preserve your body and soul in being. In other words, the very fire that burns you will keep you from being consumed. Your soul shall never die. Your body will not consume away. You will lose none of your powers, faculties, or senses. Rather, they shall all be intensified! That is what our Lord means by you being salted with fire and the fire being unquenchable!

Mark 9:49-50 NKJV
9:49 "For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt.
9:50 Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another."

It looks like your verse is from the NIV. I think that the NKJV gives us a better view of the text, and we should look the the following verse to determine it what Jesus is talking about. When you look at verses 49 and 50 your comments make no sense.

It seems that the Lord is talking about trials that we will encounter in this life, and that they are good for us. I verses 42-48 Jesus talks about the sacrifices we may have to make during these trials (hand, foot, and eye).

Sorry,I know that this was a little off subject.

Robin