1 Timothy 4:10

[Guest]

Before it gets lost, It seems to me that a close look is needed at the meaning Paul intended in this statement:

1 Timothy 4:10 (New King James Version)

10. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe

This statement is a favorite of the Universalists. We see what it says, but what does it mean? Does it mean what the Universalist says: that all men will be saved? The following thoughts come to mind:

1. It should be noticed that in some sense God is the Savior of all men, and in some other (special) sense He is the Savior of some men, namely believers, that He is not for all men. Men are either saved or they are not. If all are saved in the soteriological sense, then to say some are "specially" saved is meaningless.

2. If it is the will of God, in an absolute sense, that all men will ultimately be saved, then it is not possible that any will be lost. And if it is God's determined will that none will be lost, why does He not save all in this life? How can He allow some to go into aionios punishment, whether it is for a very long time or permanently? Why not save them before that happens? Those of you who say it is unjust to subject them to an endless judgement, how is it just to subject them to, say, 10,000 years of it?

3. Scripture, even in the Old Testament, informs us that God is the savior of all:

Psalm 36:6 (New King James Version)

6. Your righteousness is like the great mountains;
Your judgments are a great deep;
O LORD, You preserve (save, deliver) man and beast.

The greek word soter, translated "savior" in our subject (1 Timothy)passage, can also mean "savior" or "deliverer". So God is savior, deliverer, or preserver of all men. Certainly God was the Savior of all Israel, but we know how that turned out:

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 (New King James Version)

1. Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2. all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3. all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8. Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9. nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10. nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.


So here we see that all were saved, or delivered, in one sense, yet most of them never reached the promised land. This did not change the status of God as their Savior, although most of their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

4. Jesus is both Lord and Savior. Does the fact that He is not submitted to as Lord by all men mean that He is not Lord?


Acts 10:36 (New King James Version)

36. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—

Jesus' status is unaffected whether people submit to Him or not. Likewise God is Savior of all men, whether they accept that salvation or not.

[Guest]

I would like to use Noah and the Ark as an example since my son just finished reading the cartoon story version of Noah's Ark.

Noah called all men to enter the boat so that they will be save when the great flood arrives but few chose to enter the boat therefore few were saved.

Noah was the saviour of all men in that particular situation.

The same with God He is the saviour of all men but since God is a just God which means He will not force us to do what we don't want then not all will be save because some will choose not to be save.

[Guest]

The greek word soter, translated "savior" in our subject (1 Timothy)passage, can also mean "savior" or "deliverer". So God is savior, deliverer, or preserver of all men. Certainly God was the Savior of all Israel, but we know how that turned out:


Generally in the OT what God delivered Israel from was, oppression not sin therefore when Israel once again became disobient God once again exercised his judgment upon Israel.
But as a nation THEY ALL were delivered from oppression as long as they walked with the Lord.

[Guest]

1. It should be noticed that in some sense God is the Savior of all men, and in some other (special) sense He is the Savior of some men, namely believers, that He is not for all men. Men are either saved or they are not. If all are saved in the soteriological sense, then to say some are "specially" saved is meaningless.

It is not meaningless. The believers (that is "trusters") are specially saved in the sense that they will not have to undergo the discomfort of having to be corrected in Gehenna as others will.

2. If it is the will of God, in an absolute sense, that all men will ultimately be saved, then it is not possible that any will be lost.

Oh, many will be lost (or "destroyed"). But the lost can be found. And the destruction of their unregenerate natures is for their good.

And if it is God's determined will that none will be lost, why does He not save all in this life?

Homer, what do you mean by "save them in this life"? Provide them with a ticket to heaven?

My understanding of Christ saving us, is that He delivers us from sin. The angel announced at Christ's birth, "He shall save His people from their sins." Our salvation from sin is not yet complete; it is a process. This process will take place only with our consent. It will be completed at Christ's return when He puts the finishing touches upon it. He cannot not begin to save the faithless until they allow Him, by submitting their lives to Him.

[_mdh]

Homer,

And if it is God's determined will that none will be lost, why does He not save all in this life? How can He allow some to go into aionios punishment, whether it is for a very long time or permanently?

I have no idea. If you see Him before I do, why don't you ask Him?

Why did He choose Jacob and not Esau? Why did He not reveal the Gospel until thousands of years after Adam? Why did He choose us men to share His message of reconciliation with God instead of choosing more obedient Angels to herald His message?

God's plan to use the weak rather than the strong, to use poor rather than rich, to use "foolish" rather than "wise" is somewhat of a mystery. But that is what He has done.

I don't know why God does things the way He does them. Maybe He has a lot of time on His hands and He likes to do things slowly (or what seems slow to us:)

Why not save them before that happens? Those of you who say it is unjust to subject them to an endless judgement, how is it just to subject them to, say, 10,000 years of it?

If 10,000 years of "correction" results in a person cleansed of sinful impurities, reconciled to God, and fit for Kingdom life, it would seem time well spent. If after 300 trillion trillion years of punishment the person was no closer to being done with his "judgment", it makes no sense to me.

(I am not necessarily agreeing to your 10,000 year judgment, just answering your question. I have no idea how long it will take to remove all the impurities from a person and make him/her ready for kingdom life).

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

Those of you who say it is unjust to subject them to an endless judgement, how is it just to subject them to, say, 10,000 years of it?

Homer, Is it so difficult to see that proportional punishment is just and eternal punishing is unjust? In Rev it says the "timid" and the "murderer"shall each have their part in the lake of fire. Can you not see a difference in the degree of sin?
Do you think God can work it out?

[Guest]

Those of you who say it is unjust to subject them to an endless judgement, how is it just to subject them to, say, 10,000 years of it?

Homer, Is it so difficult to see that proportional punishment is just and eternal punishing is unjust? In Rev it says the "timid" and the "murderer"shall each have their part in the lake of fire. Can you not see a difference in the degree of sin?
Do you think God can work it out?

On this thought, the following scripture came to mind.

Heb 2:2-3a
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;...

This scripture seems to indicate that punishment is proportional. Each violation received its proper response. It's the same idea as the verses that say we will be judged "according to our works."

I realize that this may or may not be referring to what happens in the LOF, but I think the same principal will apply.

Todd

[Guest]

Paidion,

You wrote in response to my quote:

Quote:
And if it is God's determined will that none will be lost, why does He not save all in this life?


Homer, what do you mean by "save them in this life"? Provide them with a ticket to heaven?

And what do you see God doing with those you say are undergoing "aionios correction"? Does He not give them "a ticket to heaven" as you seem to think I believe God gives us, or do they remain in hell (or outer darkness, or whever you say they are) doing good works for some length of time, "showing their faith by their works" before they are allowed in Heaven (or wherever you think the saved go)?

If you say they do good works for some time before they get out, are they suffering while they do them, and what do you think they do there? And if they do not need (or are not required) to do anything after they "fess up", aren't they just being given "a ticket to heaven", unless, of course, you see them as paying for their own sins by their suffering.

I realize you do not have answers for these questions, that is the problem with your system, and makes it difficult to believe in. It seems to take a few scriptures here and there, interpret them in unusual ways, with a lot of imagination added in.

[Guest]

Hello Homer & all,

We see what it says, but what does it mean?

Here's some of my study notes (not an exegesis of the passage).

1 Timothy 4:10 (NKJV)
10. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

I copied this from another post of mine:
1 Tim 4:10.
The word "especially" in the Greek is malista.
Origin: neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb mala: "very"
Part of speech: adverb superlative
Meaning: "specially, especially, chiefly:-in particular, most of all, above all"

From Jamison, Fawcett, and Brown's Commentary:

1 Tim 4:10 (KJV) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Verse 10. therefore--Greek, "with a view to this." The reason why "we both ('both' is omitted in the oldest manuscripts) labor (endure hardship) and suffer reproach (some oldest manuscripts read 'strive') is because we have rested, and do rest our hope, on the living {and therefore, life-giving, 1 Timothy 4:8} God."
Saviour--even in this life {1 Timothy 4:8}.
specially of those that believe--Their "labor and reproach" are not inconsistent with their having from the living God, their Saviour, even the present life (Mark 10:30, "a hundred fold now in this time . . . with persecutions"), much more the life to come. If God is in a sense "Saviour" of unbelievers (1 Timothy 2:4, that is, is willing to be so everlastingly, and is temporally here their Preserver and Benefactor), much more of believers. He is the Saviour of all men potentially (1 Timothy 1:15); of believers alone effectually.

From James Burton Coffman's Commentaries:

Of the living God ...
The Christian hope contrasted starkly with the hope of the pagan world which was set upon dead idols.

Who is the Saviour of all men ...
This is not universalism. The key is in the words, `specially of them that believe. It is a fact, of course, that God is able and willing to save all men, and that all who are ever saved will be saved by him; and it is in this sense that "he is the Saviour of all men." As Lenski said, "We know why so many are not saved (Matthew 23:37)."

In 1 Timothy 4:10 Paul teaches the 'opposite' of (modern day) universalism and commands Timothy to teach the same. Of course, Paul never had (modern day) universalism in mind. This passage isn't Paul's rebuttal to it in particular---as he didn't know about it as it exists today. There's not a hint that Paul had anything like (modern day) universalism in his thinking in his writings; a verse-by-verse exegesis of 1 Tim 4:1-11 would clearly show it's not here. (I won't offer one now but will if need be or asked). It's clear what Paul was writing about---and what he wasn't.

1 Tim 4 (Revised Young's Literal Translation)
10for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.
I posted this translation as it gets the Greek tenses (literally) correct.
Note: God is saving {is the effectual Saviour} in the present tense only those who are currently-believing in Him and currently-hoping on Him.

Rick

[Guest]

I've been reading this thread with great interest because I'm leaning in the direction of Universal Reconciliation.

Here are my thoughts and comments on 1 Timothy 4:10

I don't find any argument to be conclusive one way or another regarding this verse.
A plain reading of Paul's statement in verse 10 says that God is the Savior of all people.
Homer asserted:

1. It should be noticed that in some sense God is the Savior of all men, and in some other (special) sense He is the Savior of some men, namely believers, that He is not for all men. Men are either saved or they are not. If all are saved in the soteriological sense, then to say some are "specially" saved is meaningless

...to which Paidion answered:

It is not meaningless. The believers (that is "trusters") are specially saved in the sense that they will not have to undergo the discomfort of having to be corrected in Gehenna as others will.

Seems to makes sense to me.



Rick and others argued that:

He is the Saviour of all men potentially (1 Timothy 1:15); of believers alone [/i]effectually.

However, these qualifying adverbs aren't found in the passage. In order to apply them, one has to cross reference other verses, such as 1 Timothy 1:15 or Matthew 23:37.
First, I would assert that the verses referenced do not prove that God will not save all people.
Second, if there are some other verses in Scripture that say that God will not save all people, how do we know which way to apply. Either we bring other verses to bear on 1 Timothy 4:10 and thereby change or add to its meaning, or we take 1 Timothy 4:10 to the other verses to change or add to their meanings. I'm not sure how one can say conclusively which direction that should go.


In studying the verse a bit myself, I could see that Paul's statement in verse 10 could be meant to contrast the inclusiveness of God against the exclusivity of the false teachings described in verse 3. Still, this explanation doesn't remove the possibility that God will save all people.


IMO, I have to admit that there is enough ambiguity in Scripture to leave equal amounts of weight for both Annihilationism and Universal Reconciliation, with Eternal Torment being the least likely option.

Dave