How do we reconcile salvation being called a free gift (Eph 2:8,9) with discipleship costing everything (Luke 14:33)?
Does this mean that salvation is free, but discipleship is something different?
What is the cost of salvation?
What is the cost of salvation?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
salvation is a free gift, but is not without condition. but that doesnt mean it isnt free.
TK
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
There is more than condition. There is cost - we're told to count the cost.TK wrote:salvation is a free gift, but is not without condition. but that doesnt mean it isnt free.
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A couple of passages to consider as you ponder this apparent contradiction:
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let him who hears say, "Come." And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.
Revelation 3:17-19 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let him who hears say, "Come." And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.
Revelation 3:17-19 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich, and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nakedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
i still believe that salvation is "free" in the sense that we cant do anything to earn it. The cost was laid on Jesus. The condition we must meet is to be a disciple. there is a cost to discipleship, but that cost is not applied to buy salvation. it is simply a "cost of doing business" as a Christian.
TK
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
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_Father_of_five
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Re: What is the cost of salvation?
If salvation is a free gift it applies to all mankind (as I believe it does). As I see it, there are two aspects of salvation - (1) salvation in this present life, and (2) salvation from death (the resurrection). In the first case (salvation in life) it is necessary that we deny our fleshly lusts and follow Christ. This takes sacrifice on our part. Through obedience we experience the true blessedness of Christ in our lifetime. In the second case (salvation from death) this is the free gift which applies to all mankind without condition. Christ conquered death and gained the victory for everyone.Brad wrote:How do we reconcile salvation being called a free gift (Eph 2:8,9) with discipleship costing everything (Luke 14:33)?
Does this mean that salvation is free, but discipleship is something different?
1 Cor 15:22
As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Thinking of savation in two parts makes the following verse make perfect sense (to me).
1 Tim 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
The reason that those who believe are a special case is because these enjoy the blessings of Christ in this present life. The rest will not until their redemption at the resurrection.
Todd
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Re: What is the cost of salvation?
It sounds like you subscribe to a sort of universalism.Father_of_five wrote:As I see it, there are two aspects of salvation - (1) salvation in this present life, and (2) salvation from death (the resurrection). In the first case (salvation in life) it is necessary that we deny our fleshly lusts and follow Christ. This takes sacrifice on our part. Through obedience we experience the true blessedness of Christ in our lifetime. In the second case (salvation from death) this is the free gift which applies to all mankind without condition. Christ conquered death and gained the victory for everyone.
...
The reason that those who believe are a special case is because these enjoy the blessings of Christ in this present life. The rest will not until their redemption at the resurrection.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
This sounds like a distinction w/o a difference.TK wrote:i still believe that salvation is "free" in the sense that we cant do anything to earn it. The cost was laid on Jesus. The condition we must meet is to be a disciple. there is a cost to discipleship, but that cost is not applied to buy salvation. it is simply a "cost of doing business" as a Christian.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion wrote:A couple of passages to consider as you ponder this apparent contradiction:
Revelation 22:17 ... let him who desires take the water of life without price.
Revelation 3:17-19 ... Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire ... Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.
Wow. This is a better example of the problem than mine. I'm no closer to any sort of resolution, however. The only plausible resolution so far (other than my initial thought of a distinction between salvation and discipleship) is father_of_five's, but one would have to accept universalist theology in order for that to work.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
First, let me affirm that there is no distinction between a "disciple" and a "Christian". The word "Christian" simply came into use later on.
Acts 11:26 ...in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called "Christians."
There is a great cost to becoming a disciple of Christ. Indeed, it costs us our very lives. We must die to the self-life, and submit completely to the authority of Christ.
Luke 14:26-28,33 If any one comes to me and does not discount his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple. [Jesus bore his cross in order to die on it. In our case also, the self-life must die]. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?...
So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.
So there is no doubt that becoming a disciple costs us everything that we are or ever hope to be.
That being the case, why is salvation called "the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8? ---- that it is not the result of works ?
I think the first part of verse 8 as well as verse 10 help us to see the whole picture:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith..."
Ephesians is the only NT writing which states that we have been saved. Others indicate that salvation from sin is a process. But we know also that "He who began a good work in you, will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." In other words, God is going to complete the work he started in us. So if God is going to completely save (deliver) us from sin, it's as good as done now. We may as well say that we have been saved.
A similar situation pertains in Hebrews 2:6-
It has been testified somewhere, "What is man that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him?
You have made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.
Here again, although not yet is everything under his feet, God intends to see that it happens, so we may as well say everything has been put under his feet.
Grace, according to Titus 2, is God's enabling to train us in righteousness. It is through this enablement, that the process of salvation is taking place in us. However, we must coöperate with this divine grace, or it will not come to pass. Yet this salvation is "not of works", that is, it is not our own doing, lest anyone should boast. It is God's doing ---- God's enablement for:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. [verse 10]
Acts 11:26 ...in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called "Christians."
There is a great cost to becoming a disciple of Christ. Indeed, it costs us our very lives. We must die to the self-life, and submit completely to the authority of Christ.
Luke 14:26-28,33 If any one comes to me and does not discount his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple. [Jesus bore his cross in order to die on it. In our case also, the self-life must die]. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?...
So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.
So there is no doubt that becoming a disciple costs us everything that we are or ever hope to be.
That being the case, why is salvation called "the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8? ---- that it is not the result of works ?
I think the first part of verse 8 as well as verse 10 help us to see the whole picture:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith..."
Ephesians is the only NT writing which states that we have been saved. Others indicate that salvation from sin is a process. But we know also that "He who began a good work in you, will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." In other words, God is going to complete the work he started in us. So if God is going to completely save (deliver) us from sin, it's as good as done now. We may as well say that we have been saved.
A similar situation pertains in Hebrews 2:6-
It has been testified somewhere, "What is man that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him?
You have made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.
Here again, although not yet is everything under his feet, God intends to see that it happens, so we may as well say everything has been put under his feet.
Grace, according to Titus 2, is God's enabling to train us in righteousness. It is through this enablement, that the process of salvation is taking place in us. However, we must coöperate with this divine grace, or it will not come to pass. Yet this salvation is "not of works", that is, it is not our own doing, lest anyone should boast. It is God's doing ---- God's enablement for:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. [verse 10]
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald