Hello Rick,
Quote: "But when the Bible was written -- to the people of the Bible -- in their Oriental culture and setting; I don't think they had much, if ANY, trouble understanding what (biblical) forgiveness is back then...."
I recall from a commentary I read sometime ago, (I don't have the source) that Peters understanding as taught by the rabbis of his day, the granting of foregiveness was limited to 3 times. Jesus utterly confounded and apparently "troubled" his understanding. Jesus went way beyond common rabbinic thought on the subject. IMO, they did have trouble understanding Jesus.
Hi Michelle,
Quote: "I want to know what forgiveness is like, not just a definition".
Amen! I feel the same way. Our foregiveness was obtained by the shed blood of Christ. A payment was made. Our debt to God was cancelled because it is unpayable by us. We don't have enough "money" as the parable of "the Unmerciful Servant" describes. To demand justice ,restitution, even a demand of repentance from the party who wronged us, IMO, "misses the mark" in our comprehension as to what extent God has forgiven us in Christ. Here I think, is where many of us
like Peter, stumble. Sermons on the matter, I agree are lacking or are very shallow at best. What makes the Gospel "good news" to modern
western thought today? You fill in the blanks...
Hey Homer!
Amen Brother! Couldn't agree with you more.
Peace in Christ to You All,
Bob
True Forgiveness
Traveler Bob:
Deuteronomy 10:18 [Yahweh your God] executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing.
Deuteronomy 27:19 "’Cursed be he who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
2 Samuel 8:15 So David reigned over all Israel; and David administered justice and equity to all his people.
Psalm 10:17,18 O Yahweh, you will hear the desire of the meek; you will strengthen their heart, you will incline your ear to do justice for the orphan and the oppressed, so that those from earth may strike terror no more.
Psalms 37:28 For Yahweh loves justice; he will not forsake his saints.
In the following, Solomon prays for justice! Would he ask for punishment for himself?
Psalms 72:1 Give the king your justice, O God, and your righteousness to the king’s son.
Below, the Psalmist thanks God for justice for Israel!
Psalms 99:4 Mighty King, lover of justice, you have established equity; you have executed justice and righteousness in Jacob.
The word is also used primarily for “fairness” in the New Testament:
Matthew 12:18 "Here is my servant, whom I have chosen, my beloved, with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
In the following passage, Jesus lumps “justice” with “mercy” and “faith”, telling the Pharisees that they neglected all three. But the Pharisees certainly didn’t neglect punishing the guilty of breaking the Mosaic law or even punishing those who were suspected of being guilty.
Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith.
We are told that justice was denied our Lord. I don’t think anyone would have any problem if punishment were denied him. But if fair play is denied, most people get upset.
Acts 8:33 In his humiliation justice was denied him…
In the Greek New Testament, the only occurence of the word “epitimia” is in 2 Corinthians 2:6. “epi” is the prefix meaning “on”. It is interesting that the meaning of the root word is “honour” or “that which is precious” or “that which is valuable”.
The word “epitimia” was used 10 times in the Septuagint translation to translate a Hebrew word which means “rebuke”. This was probably the “punishment” by the congregation. He was rebuked and avoided as Paul instructed.
Yes, he was forgiven after he was “punished”. The very purpose of the “punishment” was to influence him to repent. It would have been a great mistake to have forgiven him before he repented. To do so would have been “letting him off the hook”. In that case, had he continued in fellowship with other disciples, his “flesh” would not have been destroyed, and he would have continued in his sexually immoral ways. Justice ought to be done for all --- the wicked corrected and those unjustly accused, exonerated from false charges, the hungry fed, etc.
I do not believe we die physically as a result of our sins. What great sins have babies committed that some of them die when they are a few days old? We die physically because when Adam and Eve rebelled, all of creation (at least all of it on the planet Terra) fell from its former state. According to Paul, creation is now groaning to be re-instated so that it will be no longer subject to decay. It was because of the fall that physical death came into the world, not only death, but disease, the necessity of labour to survive, animals killing and devouring one another instead of eating vegetable matter as they did in the beginning, mosquitoes sucking the blood of animals instead of sucking the juices from plants in order to produce their young, worms burrowing into the muscle tissue of animals, scabies (tiny spiders) burrowing under human skin to dwell there and produce their young) and many other even more disgusting atrocities.
Bottom line:
All justice is fairness. All of God’s judgments are remedial.
God is not vengeful. He does not punish only because a person “deserves” it. Indeed, that a person “ought to be punished because he deserves it” is tautologous. If the sentence is true then it is trivially true because the phrase “ought to be punished” is tantamount to “deserves to be punished.”
I suppose I will be immediately challenged with the statement, “Vengeance is mine: I will repay, says the Lord”.
The word translated as “vengeance” is “ekdikāsis” which literally means “out of judgment”. Some translators have translated the word as “justice” (in other contexts). God’s judgments are fair, as ours should be. God’s justice is fair, by definition. Yes, those who “deserve” to be corrected ought to be corrected, and God will see that it is done ----- sooner or later. God’s sense of “I will repay” differs from fallen man's sense.
Man's fallen nature says, “I will get even with that creep. I’ll see that he suffers.”
God says, “I’ll see that he doesn’t get away with it and thus continue in evil permanently. I’ll see that he is corrected until he submits to Me and glorifies Me just as all of my children do.”
The Greek word translated as “justice” has the same root as the one translated as “righteousness”. The word’s basic meaning is “fair play”. God is just, in that He does not show partiality, but rewards or corrects according to the need of each person. There are more references in the Bible to “justice” for the oppressed, or weak, or those who have a greater share of difficulties in life, than there are for punishment or correction of evil persons. “Justice” cuts both ways. Here are a few references to justice or fair play for every one.I am not sure your belief covers every circumstance. The exercise of "justice" in the bible seems less about a corrective measure and more about a specific removal of evil from among the believing community."I understand the word “justice” as a synonym for “fairness”. Sometimes correction is a necessary element of justice, and you might be using “justice” in that sense. But if a person has truly repented, he does not require correction, for he has already been corrected. However, if you mean he “ought to be punished” because he “deserves” the punishment for what he has done [C.S. Lewis’s theory of punishment], I can’t go along with that. I do not believe that God punishes in that way, and neither should we."
Deuteronomy 10:18 [Yahweh your God] executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing.
Deuteronomy 27:19 "’Cursed be he who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
2 Samuel 8:15 So David reigned over all Israel; and David administered justice and equity to all his people.
Psalm 10:17,18 O Yahweh, you will hear the desire of the meek; you will strengthen their heart, you will incline your ear to do justice for the orphan and the oppressed, so that those from earth may strike terror no more.
Psalms 37:28 For Yahweh loves justice; he will not forsake his saints.
In the following, Solomon prays for justice! Would he ask for punishment for himself?
Psalms 72:1 Give the king your justice, O God, and your righteousness to the king’s son.
Below, the Psalmist thanks God for justice for Israel!
Psalms 99:4 Mighty King, lover of justice, you have established equity; you have executed justice and righteousness in Jacob.
The word is also used primarily for “fairness” in the New Testament:
Matthew 12:18 "Here is my servant, whom I have chosen, my beloved, with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
In the following passage, Jesus lumps “justice” with “mercy” and “faith”, telling the Pharisees that they neglected all three. But the Pharisees certainly didn’t neglect punishing the guilty of breaking the Mosaic law or even punishing those who were suspected of being guilty.
Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith.
We are told that justice was denied our Lord. I don’t think anyone would have any problem if punishment were denied him. But if fair play is denied, most people get upset.
Acts 8:33 In his humiliation justice was denied him…
Can we be certain that this refers to physical death? Those who are “dead in trespasses and sins” certainly need correction. This may be the reason that John says that he does not recommend making a request to God concerning sins which lead to [spiritual] death. For if God answers such prayer, the offender may not receive the consequences of his sin, and be corrected.A case in point would be a brother who commits murder. He may truly repent of his deeds. He may not lose his salvation, but may suffer loss of physical life for his "sin that has lead to death". I Jn 5:16-17.
The “destruction of his flesh” certainly did not refer to his physical death, since he did not die after being handed over to Satan. No doubt Paul referred to the destruction of his sinful nature so that a new nature might come forth. In his letters, Paul repeatedly referred to the sinful nature as “the flesh”. It is uncertain what the “punishment” by the congregation was. Indeed, it is uncertain whether it was in fact “punishment”.Also Paul's handling of the case about the man "having his fathers wife"; he was put out of the congregation, handed over to Satan for the "desruction of his flesh", etc. I Cor 5,; then restored to fellowship after he was "punished" by the congregation; II Cor 2. (for what he did). He was forgiven after he was punished.
In the Greek New Testament, the only occurence of the word “epitimia” is in 2 Corinthians 2:6. “epi” is the prefix meaning “on”. It is interesting that the meaning of the root word is “honour” or “that which is precious” or “that which is valuable”.
The word “epitimia” was used 10 times in the Septuagint translation to translate a Hebrew word which means “rebuke”. This was probably the “punishment” by the congregation. He was rebuked and avoided as Paul instructed.
Yes, he was forgiven after he was “punished”. The very purpose of the “punishment” was to influence him to repent. It would have been a great mistake to have forgiven him before he repented. To do so would have been “letting him off the hook”. In that case, had he continued in fellowship with other disciples, his “flesh” would not have been destroyed, and he would have continued in his sexually immoral ways. Justice ought to be done for all --- the wicked corrected and those unjustly accused, exonerated from false charges, the hungry fed, etc.
No, it isn’t. It is not just to “give a person what he deserves” if there is no remedial value in the punishment.Also as believers in Christ, we all still die (physically) as a result of our sins. There is nothing "corrective" about it IMO. It is the just punishment of a holy God "visiting our iniquities" upon us, isn't it ?
I do not believe we die physically as a result of our sins. What great sins have babies committed that some of them die when they are a few days old? We die physically because when Adam and Eve rebelled, all of creation (at least all of it on the planet Terra) fell from its former state. According to Paul, creation is now groaning to be re-instated so that it will be no longer subject to decay. It was because of the fall that physical death came into the world, not only death, but disease, the necessity of labour to survive, animals killing and devouring one another instead of eating vegetable matter as they did in the beginning, mosquitoes sucking the blood of animals instead of sucking the juices from plants in order to produce their young, worms burrowing into the muscle tissue of animals, scabies (tiny spiders) burrowing under human skin to dwell there and produce their young) and many other even more disgusting atrocities.
Bottom line:
All justice is fairness. All of God’s judgments are remedial.
God is not vengeful. He does not punish only because a person “deserves” it. Indeed, that a person “ought to be punished because he deserves it” is tautologous. If the sentence is true then it is trivially true because the phrase “ought to be punished” is tantamount to “deserves to be punished.”
I suppose I will be immediately challenged with the statement, “Vengeance is mine: I will repay, says the Lord”.
The word translated as “vengeance” is “ekdikāsis” which literally means “out of judgment”. Some translators have translated the word as “justice” (in other contexts). God’s judgments are fair, as ours should be. God’s justice is fair, by definition. Yes, those who “deserve” to be corrected ought to be corrected, and God will see that it is done ----- sooner or later. God’s sense of “I will repay” differs from fallen man's sense.
Man's fallen nature says, “I will get even with that creep. I’ll see that he suffers.”
God says, “I’ll see that he doesn’t get away with it and thus continue in evil permanently. I’ll see that he is corrected until he submits to Me and glorifies Me just as all of my children do.”
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Greetings,
NASB, Matt 18:21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Peter doesn't know what forgiveness is? Note, Jesus doesn't explain what it is (because Peter didn't ask), right?
Yes, Bob. Any notable Rabbi of the first century would have his own halakah (from the Hebrew root meaning "to walk" or "to go"). Halakah was each Rabbi's own personal teaching about the commandments; what he said on "the way to go" (how we should live).
So, it seems to me that Peter wanted to know how many times he is to forgive (is what he asked, is all). What am I missing here? It's basic math, right? lol
2. You're welcome on the "backgrounder." I first heard forgiveness being spoken of in non-traditional ways by a guy named Roy Masters on the radio. He's sort of unorthodox in some of his beliefs (I can't remember what though). It was he who said, "Forgiveness is: No matter what has been done to me or how badly I have been hurt, regardless of if they care about me or not---I release them to get on with my life" (and I think this is "biblical")!
3. For me there's no danger of word-meanings getting in the way of how I live. Once I find out what it means (like what Jesus really said) I'm "armed for action in the Kingdom!"
4. What forgiveness is like to me (real life examples, mine):
---All of my (Christian) relatives are dispensationalists. I despise dispensationalism. Therefore, I permit my relatives to believe as they wish.
---I go to a 'Christian recovery meeting' sometimes. They mix the Bible and the philosophy of AA, teaching that alcoholism is a disease. However, the Bible says it is a sin. Therefore, after getting into very heated arguments about this; I no longer discuss or contest their beliefs in the meetings. I've let them be on that.
---Someone I know made promises and broke them. This led to many misunderstandings. Therefore, I've left them alone for the most part and allow them their freedom (of being not all that close to me...they owe me no promises now).
---A co-worker was very critical and demeaning, owing me many apologies. I cancelled this debt they owed me and began to ask, "How are you doing today?" Then, they told me about their problems and we wound up good friends!
You know, stuff like that....
In Christ,
Rick
I'm supposing that this is Peter's question (Michelle referred to):Michelle wrote:I agree, Rick, that we need to understand what forgiveness meant to the original hearers/readers of the scripture to come to a full understanding of what is required of us. However, the wording of the warnings and the seeming absurdity of Peter's question(s)(?), makes it seem that it was a very important concept even for those early believers to get, and that the concept was apparently one which could be easily misunderstood, even then.
& Bob added:
I recall from a commentary I read sometime ago, (I don't have the source) that Peters understanding as taught by the rabbis of his day, the granting of forgiveness was limited to 3 times. Jesus utterly confounded and apparently "troubled" his understanding. Jesus went way beyond common rabbinic thought on the subject. IMO, they did have trouble understanding Jesus.
NASB, Matt 18:21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Peter doesn't know what forgiveness is? Note, Jesus doesn't explain what it is (because Peter didn't ask), right?
Yes, Bob. Any notable Rabbi of the first century would have his own halakah (from the Hebrew root meaning "to walk" or "to go"). Halakah was each Rabbi's own personal teaching about the commandments; what he said on "the way to go" (how we should live).
So, it seems to me that Peter wanted to know how many times he is to forgive (is what he asked, is all). What am I missing here? It's basic math, right? lol
To me, if I don't know what a word meant...I don't know what a word meant (so I have to find out)! Sometimes (often, actually) it takes linguistics to figure this stuff out. I'm the kind of person who has to have a definition (things defined) before I act. INTP by Jung (Introverted iNtuitive Thinking Perceptive type)...I gotta figure it out before I do anything, lol. Otherwise, I might make a boo-boo (for no good reason)!Michelle also wrote:I guess it's valuable to note how certain words are used in certain places in the Bible and so forth, but I'm more interested in knowing what Jesus' teachings mean to a follower of Christ, like, say, me. I think that's why the most thought-provoking post, for me, has been when Paidion reworked the believers' acceptance of Saul/Paul into their homes and lives. I want to know what forgiveness is like, not just a definition.
If that sounds anti-intellectual, I didn't mean it that way. I really enjoy looking at etymology and thinking about the complexity of languages and the difficulties of translation. But...I need it to make a difference in my life.
1. Yes, I've heard Dr. Philish type sermons too; approaching things from a "psych" perspective (secular psychology). Not that psych is necessarily all wrong...but much of it is anti-biblical and/or non-biblical. You know, things like "my inner boy still hurts and has needs" (HUH??? which I heard in a sermon not long ago...in a church I don't visit very much any more...well, I haven't been back since)....lastly, Michelle wrote:The reason I referenced the "milk and meat" thread is that I believe there is a danger of serving "milk" in more than one way. As Bob said, forgiveness seems to be a big deal, yet I can't remember very many sermons about it. The ones that do come to mind seemed to be Dr. Philish; more concerned that you avoid the toxic nature of hanging on to your hurt, anger, and resentment which lead to ulcers and headaches and whatever else. I don't think I've really heard much what forgiveness really means and how it impacts the kingdom and the individuals spiritually. I wish that someone had done the background that you, Rick, have provided earlier in this thread for me at some point, that might have helped my understand. But, there's also a danger of getting so far into what the word means, "isn't that interesting that sometimes it has to do with 'leaving'," etc., that the application, the kingdom aspect, is once again overlooked.
2. You're welcome on the "backgrounder." I first heard forgiveness being spoken of in non-traditional ways by a guy named Roy Masters on the radio. He's sort of unorthodox in some of his beliefs (I can't remember what though). It was he who said, "Forgiveness is: No matter what has been done to me or how badly I have been hurt, regardless of if they care about me or not---I release them to get on with my life" (and I think this is "biblical")!
3. For me there's no danger of word-meanings getting in the way of how I live. Once I find out what it means (like what Jesus really said) I'm "armed for action in the Kingdom!"
4. What forgiveness is like to me (real life examples, mine):
---All of my (Christian) relatives are dispensationalists. I despise dispensationalism. Therefore, I permit my relatives to believe as they wish.
---I go to a 'Christian recovery meeting' sometimes. They mix the Bible and the philosophy of AA, teaching that alcoholism is a disease. However, the Bible says it is a sin. Therefore, after getting into very heated arguments about this; I no longer discuss or contest their beliefs in the meetings. I've let them be on that.
---Someone I know made promises and broke them. This led to many misunderstandings. Therefore, I've left them alone for the most part and allow them their freedom (of being not all that close to me...they owe me no promises now).
---A co-worker was very critical and demeaning, owing me many apologies. I cancelled this debt they owed me and began to ask, "How are you doing today?" Then, they told me about their problems and we wound up good friends!
You know, stuff like that....
In Christ,
Rick
Last edited by _Rich on Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Hello Paidion,
Thanks for the reply. I do agree that the word "justice" can mean both "fair play", or "righteousness" depending of course upon the context.
However, I was thinking more about the exersise of God's justice in the legal judicial sense of the term. We have an unpayable debt to God. It is a given that God will always act according to His righteousness. If God always acted according to His justice in this sense, with no apparent view toward correctively changing a persons behaviour, would you consider this "fair play"? Be careful here. What "shocks" us is when we see God acting with this kind of justice, with "speed and finality". The great "mass killer" of all mankind is not the Stalins or Hitlers of the world. It is a Holy God exercising His judicial perogative! IMO, for us to comprehend God's mercy and forgiveness, we better have a grasp of His justice. We better have a greater sense of our own sin and rebellion before a thrice Holy God! Surely the "righteous" Pharisees of Jesus day missed the mark here. As for me, I do not want or ask for God's justice. I know the implications.
You and I cannot truly forgive until we know how much we have been forgiven.
Mercy and Grace to you,
In Jesus,
Bob
Thanks for the reply. I do agree that the word "justice" can mean both "fair play", or "righteousness" depending of course upon the context.
However, I was thinking more about the exersise of God's justice in the legal judicial sense of the term. We have an unpayable debt to God. It is a given that God will always act according to His righteousness. If God always acted according to His justice in this sense, with no apparent view toward correctively changing a persons behaviour, would you consider this "fair play"? Be careful here. What "shocks" us is when we see God acting with this kind of justice, with "speed and finality". The great "mass killer" of all mankind is not the Stalins or Hitlers of the world. It is a Holy God exercising His judicial perogative! IMO, for us to comprehend God's mercy and forgiveness, we better have a grasp of His justice. We better have a greater sense of our own sin and rebellion before a thrice Holy God! Surely the "righteous" Pharisees of Jesus day missed the mark here. As for me, I do not want or ask for God's justice. I know the implications.
You and I cannot truly forgive until we know how much we have been forgiven.
Mercy and Grace to you,
In Jesus,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hi Rick,
It's good to have you back here on a regular basis. I hope all is going well in your life.
Thank you for your interesting reply. I think I'm pretty much in agreement with your conclusions. It seems from your examples that you have come to an understanding of what forgiveness means for you and have put your understanding into action.
Because of some of the things you said, I'm beginning to think that with differences in personality and learning styles, people approach scripture in different ways. You said:
I have never tasted a mango. I know about mangoes. I know that they are a tropical fruit that grows on trees. I know what color they are. I know their shape and approximate length. I know where to get one, if I wanted to. But I do not know what their taste is like on the tongue, how their flesh feels between my teeth, or if they would be soothing or upsetting to my stomach (which is why I never have, and never will, taste one!)
So, if you said to me one day (perhaps we're in Brody's utility room,) "Let's put mangoes in our salad. Go on over to the market and get a couple," I would know just what you mean. And if I said, "Ok ... um, are they priced by the pound or by each?" you might say, "See, she knows mangoes. She's just asking a math question to clarify."
But I don't know mangoes. I just know about mangoes.
And...if I replied "OK, do you want the mangoes in cans or bottles?" you would know that even though I have some knowledge of mangoes, my understanding is off. I missed the idea of fresh mangoes.
When Peter asked how many times he has to forgive, he showed that his understanding was off. When Jesus replied with the parable of the unforgiving servant, it showed just how absurd the question of math was. Forgiveness is not a formulaic ritual to be preformed a certain number of times in a certain way; it's a lifestyle in response to the remarkable forgiveness we get from God.
This is what I mean when I say I want to know what forgiveness is. I want more than just "head knowledge." I want to know what it feels like in my heart, and how I do it with my hands and feet. I want to know what words of forgiveness are. I want to know how you manage it when it's really, really hard. And I want to make sure that I'm not treating it too lightly when it's really, really easy.
That's why this discussion has been a joy for me these last couple of weeks. You, Rick, seem to have a handle on what forgiveness means in your life. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
It's good to have you back here on a regular basis. I hope all is going well in your life.
Thank you for your interesting reply. I think I'm pretty much in agreement with your conclusions. It seems from your examples that you have come to an understanding of what forgiveness means for you and have put your understanding into action.
Because of some of the things you said, I'm beginning to think that with differences in personality and learning styles, people approach scripture in different ways. You said:
I agree that if you don't know what a word means, you pretty much have to find out before you can act on it. But just a definition isn't really enough for me. Here's an example (probably a dumb one) of what I mean:I'm the kind of person who has to have a definition (things defined) before I act. INTP by Jung (Introverted iNtuitive Thinking Perceptive type)...I gotta figure it out before I do anything, lol. Otherwise, I might make a boo-boo (for no good reason)!
I have never tasted a mango. I know about mangoes. I know that they are a tropical fruit that grows on trees. I know what color they are. I know their shape and approximate length. I know where to get one, if I wanted to. But I do not know what their taste is like on the tongue, how their flesh feels between my teeth, or if they would be soothing or upsetting to my stomach (which is why I never have, and never will, taste one!)
So, if you said to me one day (perhaps we're in Brody's utility room,) "Let's put mangoes in our salad. Go on over to the market and get a couple," I would know just what you mean. And if I said, "Ok ... um, are they priced by the pound or by each?" you might say, "See, she knows mangoes. She's just asking a math question to clarify."
But I don't know mangoes. I just know about mangoes.
And...if I replied "OK, do you want the mangoes in cans or bottles?" you would know that even though I have some knowledge of mangoes, my understanding is off. I missed the idea of fresh mangoes.
When Peter asked how many times he has to forgive, he showed that his understanding was off. When Jesus replied with the parable of the unforgiving servant, it showed just how absurd the question of math was. Forgiveness is not a formulaic ritual to be preformed a certain number of times in a certain way; it's a lifestyle in response to the remarkable forgiveness we get from God.
This is what I mean when I say I want to know what forgiveness is. I want more than just "head knowledge." I want to know what it feels like in my heart, and how I do it with my hands and feet. I want to know what words of forgiveness are. I want to know how you manage it when it's really, really hard. And I want to make sure that I'm not treating it too lightly when it's really, really easy.
That's why this discussion has been a joy for me these last couple of weeks. You, Rick, seem to have a handle on what forgiveness means in your life. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Bless you Michelle!
I really appreciated your answer to Rick. We all know what "mangoes" are. But what is it like to eat one? We know "about" what forgiveness is. But how do we live it out in our lives? Reading your post reminded me of that verse somewhere, "taste and see that the Lord is good"... The pleasure is in the eating. Amen?
A question for all: How do you feel or what do you think about God when reading the OT? I mean the stories that reveal the apparent brutality of God's judgements found there. How about Jesus? He spoke more about the "judgement(s)" of God than He did Heaven. I hate the "namby pamby" portraits of Jesus today in some churches. Jesus was no pacifist.
He is indeed the Good Shepherd. He is also the Lion of Judah. He will return in wrath and pour out the justice of God upon those who've rejected Him. Nothing "corrective" about it here, eh Paidion?
Peace in Him,
Bob
I really appreciated your answer to Rick. We all know what "mangoes" are. But what is it like to eat one? We know "about" what forgiveness is. But how do we live it out in our lives? Reading your post reminded me of that verse somewhere, "taste and see that the Lord is good"... The pleasure is in the eating. Amen?
A question for all: How do you feel or what do you think about God when reading the OT? I mean the stories that reveal the apparent brutality of God's judgements found there. How about Jesus? He spoke more about the "judgement(s)" of God than He did Heaven. I hate the "namby pamby" portraits of Jesus today in some churches. Jesus was no pacifist.
He is indeed the Good Shepherd. He is also the Lion of Judah. He will return in wrath and pour out the justice of God upon those who've rejected Him. Nothing "corrective" about it here, eh Paidion?
Peace in Him,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion,
I think I need to clarify my thoughts on the issue of God's justice. I agree with the views you've cited from scripture, that one aspect of God's justice is remedial with the goal of correcting, restoring and even preserving the faith community. However, this is only one facet in a multi- faceted issue. For example, God's forgiveness made available to us in Christ was not at the expense of His justice. A penalty was paid. Jesus died. Why did God have to send His Son to die for us? Why doesn't God simply forgive us? In the light of this, since God demands payment, why then are we commanded to forgive others their trespasses with no expectation of restitution or re-payment of a debt owed us? Is there a double standard here? This is pretty complex stuff, Amen?
In Jesus,
Bob
I think I need to clarify my thoughts on the issue of God's justice. I agree with the views you've cited from scripture, that one aspect of God's justice is remedial with the goal of correcting, restoring and even preserving the faith community. However, this is only one facet in a multi- faceted issue. For example, God's forgiveness made available to us in Christ was not at the expense of His justice. A penalty was paid. Jesus died. Why did God have to send His Son to die for us? Why doesn't God simply forgive us? In the light of this, since God demands payment, why then are we commanded to forgive others their trespasses with no expectation of restitution or re-payment of a debt owed us? Is there a double standard here? This is pretty complex stuff, Amen?
In Jesus,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
HE DOES!Why doesn't God simply forgive us?
There is no scripture to my knowledge which states that Christ had to die in order for God to forgive us. I have quoted a number of passages which state the reason for Christ's death. All of them indicate that it is to deliver us from sin, that we might serve Christ rather than ourselves.
I know you can quote several verses from the translations which read similar to the following:
Mt 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
But since the primary meaning of "aphiemi" is "leave" or "depart" or "leave behind" or "forsake" (used of a person leaving or forsaking his spouse), I propose that the verse quoted above refers to the blood of the covenant poured out for the forsaking of sins. Peter wrote:
He himself bore (or "endured") our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. I Peter 2:24
God is not interested in mere forgiveness. Christ died to save (deliver) His people from their sins. [Matthew 1:21]
When we are walking as Christ's disciples, being delivered from our sins [a process] and being conformed to the image of Christ [a process], of course, God is not going to hold our sins against us.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Greetings,
Michelle wrote:
2. Peter's question was a common theological question that would have been asked to any rabbi. I don't feel Peter's understanding was "off"; just lacking with regard to what Rabbi Jesus taught. Rabbi So&so says up to 3 times a day, while Rabbi Such&such says 7 times, and "What do you say, Rabbi Jesus?" etc., etc.
Amen, on it's the lifestyle! Not just MDR's (minimum daily requirements) on: How to be a good enuf Jew...or Christian!
3. Forgiveness, in my experience (and as we have been defining it biblically), hasn't had any predictable feeling attached to it. It "feels good" to know I've done the right thing...which brings freedom. Forgiveness probably always has that "feeling of liberation" but it is not without restraint and discipline, in my case, anyway. (Like, I don't think about past offenses/offenders...bitterness could creep back in).....
It may -- or may not -- bring a happy, warm-fuzzies feeling and could involve detachment; or what the 12 steppers call "powerlessness" (to change anyone other than me). It might involve a cramped feeling of having to muzzle myself (Don't you say a single word, Rick!).
Freedom is probably the only feeling that is always linked to forgiveness (I don't know). And, well, of course, love has to do with it, always. I can love someone without especially liking them or what they do or what they believe....
4. I'm glad you're enjoying this talk, Michelle (me too). But I want you to know that I'm not an expert on forgiveness!!! In fact, as I considered examples of people I have forgiven I wondered if I truly had...or if there might still be some bitterness or resentment in my heart (and there isn't!). As you said, forgiving is not a regimented magical formula or a purely rational decision (though it certainly takes resolve). When I encounter some of the people I mentioned...I pray! Or if I know I am going to see them, I pray for them in advance, asking that God would improve our relationship (and He definitely does)!
One thing though. I've recently noticed that some things that used to really upset me no longer matter...or matter as much. I give all credit to God for my progress, Who gives wisdom liberally to all who ask.
James 3, RYLT (Revised Young's Literal Translation):
13 Who [is] wise and intelligent among you? let him show out of the good behaviour his works in meekness of wisdom, 14 and if bitter zeal you have, and rivalry in your heart, glory not, nor lie against the truth; 15 this wisdom is not descending from above, but earthly, physical, demon-like, 16 for where zeal and rivalry [are], there is insurrection and every evil matter; 17 and the wisdom from above, first, indeed, is pure, then peaceable, gentle, easily entreated, full of kindness and good fruits, uncontentious, and unhypocritical: -- 18 and the fruit of the righteousness in peace is sown to those making peace.
Sorry if the literal translation hard to read (I like it coz it's so analytical & tense accurate, etc., etc., lol)
Rick
Michelle wrote:
1. Yes, to truly know what forgiveness is, one would have to do it (like one would have to eat a mango, I suppose? Though I'm having a hard time following your analogy), lol1. But I don't know mangoes. I just know about mangoes.
2. When Peter asked how many times he has to forgive, he showed that his understanding was off. When Jesus replied with the parable of the unforgiving servant, it showed just how absurd the question of math was. Forgiveness is not a formulaic ritual to be preformed a certain number of times in a certain way; it's a lifestyle in response to the remarkable forgiveness we get from God.
3. This is what I mean when I say I want to know what forgiveness is. I want more than just "head knowledge." I want to know what it feels like in my heart, and how I do it with my hands and feet. I want to know what words of forgiveness are. I want to know how you manage it when it's really, really hard. And I want to make sure that I'm not treating it too lightly when it's really, really easy.
4. That's why this discussion has been a joy for me these last couple of weeks. You, Rick, seem to have a handle on what forgiveness means in your life. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
2. Peter's question was a common theological question that would have been asked to any rabbi. I don't feel Peter's understanding was "off"; just lacking with regard to what Rabbi Jesus taught. Rabbi So&so says up to 3 times a day, while Rabbi Such&such says 7 times, and "What do you say, Rabbi Jesus?" etc., etc.
Amen, on it's the lifestyle! Not just MDR's (minimum daily requirements) on: How to be a good enuf Jew...or Christian!
3. Forgiveness, in my experience (and as we have been defining it biblically), hasn't had any predictable feeling attached to it. It "feels good" to know I've done the right thing...which brings freedom. Forgiveness probably always has that "feeling of liberation" but it is not without restraint and discipline, in my case, anyway. (Like, I don't think about past offenses/offenders...bitterness could creep back in).....
It may -- or may not -- bring a happy, warm-fuzzies feeling and could involve detachment; or what the 12 steppers call "powerlessness" (to change anyone other than me). It might involve a cramped feeling of having to muzzle myself (Don't you say a single word, Rick!).
Freedom is probably the only feeling that is always linked to forgiveness (I don't know). And, well, of course, love has to do with it, always. I can love someone without especially liking them or what they do or what they believe....
4. I'm glad you're enjoying this talk, Michelle (me too). But I want you to know that I'm not an expert on forgiveness!!! In fact, as I considered examples of people I have forgiven I wondered if I truly had...or if there might still be some bitterness or resentment in my heart (and there isn't!). As you said, forgiving is not a regimented magical formula or a purely rational decision (though it certainly takes resolve). When I encounter some of the people I mentioned...I pray! Or if I know I am going to see them, I pray for them in advance, asking that God would improve our relationship (and He definitely does)!
One thing though. I've recently noticed that some things that used to really upset me no longer matter...or matter as much. I give all credit to God for my progress, Who gives wisdom liberally to all who ask.
James 3, RYLT (Revised Young's Literal Translation):
13 Who [is] wise and intelligent among you? let him show out of the good behaviour his works in meekness of wisdom, 14 and if bitter zeal you have, and rivalry in your heart, glory not, nor lie against the truth; 15 this wisdom is not descending from above, but earthly, physical, demon-like, 16 for where zeal and rivalry [are], there is insurrection and every evil matter; 17 and the wisdom from above, first, indeed, is pure, then peaceable, gentle, easily entreated, full of kindness and good fruits, uncontentious, and unhypocritical: -- 18 and the fruit of the righteousness in peace is sown to those making peace.
Sorry if the literal translation hard to read (I like it coz it's so analytical & tense accurate, etc., etc., lol)
Rick
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Paidion,
Quote: "There is no scripture to my knowledge which states that Christ had to die in order for God to forgive us".
You know that's really radical! ... "without the shedding of blood there is no foregiveness"... Heb.9:22b. "for the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar;
it is the blood that makes atonement for ones life". Lev 17:11.??????????
If I understand your comment correctly, it seems that you've "up ended"
the entire atonement motif central in scripture. Maybe in the abstract sense "he didn't have to die". However He was willingly submitting to His Fathers will. If God foregives sin merely with the wave of His hand, then the death of Christ is meaningless. You may argue or insist that the death of Christ has value only with respect of "delivering us from sin that we may serve Him and not ourselves". I can agree with this. But its not the whole "enchalada". What about propitiation? What about reconciliation? Penal substitution?
In Jesus,
Bob
Quote: "There is no scripture to my knowledge which states that Christ had to die in order for God to forgive us".
You know that's really radical! ... "without the shedding of blood there is no foregiveness"... Heb.9:22b. "for the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar;
it is the blood that makes atonement for ones life". Lev 17:11.??????????
If I understand your comment correctly, it seems that you've "up ended"
the entire atonement motif central in scripture. Maybe in the abstract sense "he didn't have to die". However He was willingly submitting to His Fathers will. If God foregives sin merely with the wave of His hand, then the death of Christ is meaningless. You may argue or insist that the death of Christ has value only with respect of "delivering us from sin that we may serve Him and not ourselves". I can agree with this. But its not the whole "enchalada". What about propitiation? What about reconciliation? Penal substitution?
In Jesus,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: