True Forgiveness

_Michelle
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Post by _Michelle » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:36 pm

Thanks for your reply, Paidion. You explained your thoughts about repentance and "stumbling" in a way that is easy to understand. It has actually eased my mind a lot.

Your last couple of paragraphs...
That is true. If he has not truly repented, he ought not to be forgiven. One of the problems of our modern society is “easy forgiveness”, which is not really forgiveness at all, but is a letting the offender off the hook. This is a serious matter, since the offender thinks he can get away “scott free” and continues to offend.

Quote:
I can't get past my maternal instincts to be protective (and my own daughter is now 26!) I'm afraid that I would risk not being forgiving enough.


That would be a whole lot better than offering easy forgiveness to a person who has not truly repented.
...reminded me of another question. A couple of times now you've seemed to imply that forgiveness precludes justice. Using our child molester again, let's say that before the mother discovers what has taken place, he has had a conversion experience. Perhaps, as he comes to her full of remorse and repentance, and with all the proper body language, etc., this is the first inkling for her that something had occurred. She is assured by his demeanor, and perhaps a leading of the Holy Spirit, that his repentance is real. Would her forgiveness have to include her refusal to press charges against him? Actually, if he was, as we've been saying it, "truly repentant," wouldn't/shouldn't he confess his crime to the police himself?

(I still feel a little abashed that I keep asking you these questions. I am really thrilled that you take the time to patiently lay out your thoughts for me. Really, if it's a bother, don't feel obligated to keep on answering.)

One last question: How did you make the umlaut?
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:26 pm

Hi Michelle,
You wrote:Here goes...

When you said:
Quote:
I am a former alcoholic.
When I really needed work I saw ads for bartenders and convenience store clerks. Those options were out of the question for me or at least weren't my "first options" for obvious reasons.

You replied:
Did you mean that you didn't want to place yourself in the pathway of temptation day after day? Do you ever think about drinking anymore?

Earlier, back when this discussion was in the 'God is Green' thread, I admitted that I wasn't sure I could withstand temptation (and indeed did succumb, once) if I came across certain kinds of drugs. I'm starting to worry that I'm lacking something when it comes to my repentance.
I don't mind answering.

Yes, I meant putting myself in a pathway (situation) that would allow for the possibility of more temptation than I would, otherwise, get. The only time I even "see" alcohol is at the grocery store now (I have to walk by it to get to the ready-made tea).

And yes, I occasionally think about drinking but it is rare. However, when it hits me...it is usually pretty strong. 100% of the time a short prayer takes the temptation away. The length of the temptations are usually less than one minute, Praise God!

When I get more prolonged temptations to drink...I then realize that I need to repent once again (keeping in mind that repentance is actually "changing your mind").

This transformative mind-changing isn't a one time event that "covers all things about us for all time" as illustrated by Paul: Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will, (Ro 12:2 NIV).

So I look for "worldly patterns" in my thoughts from the perspective of what I already know: Drinking (anything at all in my case) is not pleasing to God, isn't good for me in any way, and is NOT His will for my own life.

H.A.L.T. is an acrostic that AA and other 12 step programs use. I keep it in mind and see it as "handy" and compatible with the Bible. It goes like, "Never let yourself get too: Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired." Temptations to drink come when I get-these. But, of course, temptation can come at any time.

Lastly, if you hadn't really repented about the drugs, Michelle, I highly doubt you would be asking about it. Just keep in mind that a temptation is not the same as not having repented, imo.
God bless you,
Rick
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_Michelle
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Post by _Michelle » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:35 pm

Thanks, Rick. I appreciate you answering my question, and for being so candid. Thanks, also, for the reassurance. And...I really like the H.A.L.T. thing. It's easy to remember and good advice as well.
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:40 pm

You're Welcome, Michelle :)

I edited the post just now...and want to add:

Any time I begin to "obsess" about drinking again...I know my spiritual and/or H.A.L.T. condition isn't up to par. So I do my part, as the AA's say, and let God do His part:

"But for the grace of God...there go I."
Rick
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Post by _Rick_C » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:22 pm

Paidion,

Good posts :)

Otherwise, I found 2 links on Forgiveness:
Mistranlated Words of the Bible
(click also "Forgiveness" article)


excerpted
Forgiveness
Another important Bible word that has changed meaning in the English language is "forgive". In the Bible it always refers to debt cancellation. We owe God a debt of obedience and (ahem) grovelling, and we don't pay what we owe. The past is past, there's no going back, but God is merciful: He cancels the debt -- but only if you want Him to, and only if you are willing to do the same for others [Matt.6:15].

Somehow we have gotten the notion that forgiveness is getting rid of the bitter resentment at being hurt and feeling good about the relationship. That's a good and useful (and Biblical) thing to do, but the Bible does not call it "forgiveness"(bold, mine). Forgiveness is the specific and Godly response to a person's repentance; it is neither commanded nor reasonable to cancel the debt for (that is, forgive) somebody who continues in their destructive behavior. It is commanded to love your enemies and pray for them and not seek revenge -- but that is never called "forgiveness" in the Bible. For a longer exposition on what it means to "forgive as God forgave us" see my essay on Forgiveness.

The anger, resentment, and bitterness is an emotional response, and we can choose to control our emotions. Unlike reconciliation, which only happens if both parties want it, how you choose to feel about the other person is entirely up to you. Bitterness will eat your gut (literally, in the form of ulcers and colitis) and you must get past it. Doing good for the other person -- especially when they don't deserve it -- is a wonderful way to change your attitude. Doing it in secret, without them knowing who did it, is wonderful fun and a great way to get past the bitterness. But if we insist on calling this process "forgiveness" then we need a different word to translate the Greek word used in the Bible.
from a sermon on Forgiveness by Philip Edwards (I like the sermon but do not necessarily go with all of Edwards' other beliefs):
Before we look at the Greek words translated into our English word "forgive," let’s make sure we’re all on the same page in our understanding of what it means to forgive and what the subject of forgiveness entails.

According to Webster’s Dictionary, forgive means: 1) to give up resentment against or the desire to punish; to stop being angry with; to pardon; 2) to give up all claim to punish or exact penalty for (an offense); to overlook; 3) to cancel or remit (a debt).

Webster’s definition of debt is: 1) something owed by one person to another or others; 2) an obligation or liability to pay or return something; 3) the condition of owing; 4) Theologically, a sin.

Let’s look to see if the Greek words equate with our understanding of the English words.

The Greek word translated debt is Strong’s number 3783. It is opheilayma and it means that which is owed, a debt. We can see that’s in line with our English understanding.

The Greek word translated forgive is Strong’s number 863. It is aphiaymi, and it means to send away, leave alone, or permit. Well, that’s a bit different than our understanding of the English word "forgive."

The one Greek word aphiaymi occurs more than 100 times in the New Testament and is translated allow, leave, left, let, let alone, permission, and forgive. Most of the time, though, it is translated as forgive or left.

So, we can see that the concept of the word for forgiveness also incorporates permission and leaving alone. That’s important to recognize because we’ll discover that forgiveness also has to do with sending away and letting go of offenses....

...Forgiveness includes mercy and compassion; but the real meanings of the words show that forgiveness includes the "sending away" of the sins or offenses as well as the "pardoning" or the "release from bondage" of the penalty of sinning.
I know this is a lot of stuff to post.

In light of it, anyway, I have "forgiven" people by simply leaving them be, permitting them to be who they are (which might involve not going around them also). Though they have offended me...that's okay to me now...as I no longer hold it against them in a way that hampers or disrupts my life. Were they wrong? Yes. Does that fact "rule" my life? (am I bitter)? No.

I've heard this as one definition of "forgiveness":
"No matter what has been done to me and how badly I was hurt -- I now release them to live their life -- as I, also, now go on freely with mine." I've done this in cases where there is no repentance (if they refuse to, may be dead or otherwise inaccessible, or if I have problems on holding a grudge)!!! LEAVE-IT.

It's like the offense no longer really matters.
They (who did it and what they did) get "left behind"...."released"..."let go"....
Sounds too simple to be doable almost, doesn't it?
(but it IS doable through the Lord), Amen!
Rick

P.S. To borrow from the 12 step folks again: When someone harbours resentments inside I have heard it said to them,
"How much rent are they paying to live inside your head?"
(um, usually they aren't paying any rent to do that...just an interesting thought on it, imo, lol)....
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:32 am

Homer wrote:I believe that forgiveness means releasing the other person from an obligation if they are unable to make restitution and treating the other person in a loving manner. Trust is another matter, being the other side of the faith coin, so to speak. Trust requires that one have confidence that a person will do as they should.

I know someone who, I am convinced, truly loves Jesus. He has a problem with alcohol, and has a history of falling off the wagon and repenting with bitter tears. "He who has been forgiven much, loves much." I'm sure he loves Jesus more than many Christians. Yet do I trust him with alcohol? I have little confidence that he could resist if he was put in a tempting situation.
As a follow up to Homer's post on an alcoholic and using the molester example; from the "on Forgiveness" link:
Relevant Scriptures

Letting a repentant sex offender come near your daughter a second time has some interesting implications:

Luke 17:1-2
Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.


If a man has a drinking problem and you hand him a beer, whose fault is it that he got drunk? When he sobers up the next morning, and repents, are you going to hand him another drink in the guise of forgiveness? God forbid! He should be forgiving you for exposing him to more temptation than he could bare (after duly rebuking you and hearing your repentance). If a man has a problem restraining his libido around children, do we hire him as a babysitter? If he has fallen, and repented, do we now show him forgiveness by hiring him as a babysitter? God forbid! Just because he repented does not mean it is no longer a temptation. An important part of his repentance is removing himself from temptation, and we do him no favors by making that difficult for him. This is true both after he has repented, and likewise before he has fallen the first time. This is not keeping score, it is respecting his weakness in the spirit of Romans 14. The forgiveness you offer him after he has fallen and repented, restores him 100% to the state he should have been before the offense, namely a respectful distance away from excessive temptation. If in your ignorance you had put that temptation in front of him, your repentance is demonstrated by not repeating the error.
This sums up my thoughts on it, basically. Ok, enuf from me!
Rick
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Post by _Homer » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:51 am

Paidion wrote:
So if the person you know truly had a change of heart and mind, he would not return to excessive drinking.
If your view is correct, then why would Jesus say the following?

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak


Today in church I noticed a lady silently weeping during communion. Later, I was leading the prayer. It is our practice to invite people to make specific prayer requests (this is practical in a small church). Among those was a public request from this lady, made with many tears, for prayer that she would be enabled to overcome an addiction - to smoking. She quits and then stumbles again. You can not tell me she is not sincere in her repentance. Indeed, her spirit is willing, but her flesh is weak.

I have heard Christians tell anyone who will listen how they were instantly delivered from a particular sin. I have had this same experience when I became a Christian (again). But overcomming a particular sin does not mean there will be no struggle to overcome some other fault, particularly one done in ignorance (think gossip).

I always feel bad for those listening to triumphalist talk when they are sincerely struggling to overcome some particular temptation.

By the way, the scriptures say nothing about smoking. The basis for condemning the practice is usually health. You who judge the smoker, do you overeat? Do you eat bacon? I read where medical experts were asked what one food they considered the worst of all for health and they agreed bacon was it (loaded with saturated fat and chemicals). :shock:

After church I assured this poor soul God would not send her to hell for smoking, but would help her overcome it, that she needed to quit for her health.
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:17 am

Forgiveness
Another important Bible word that has changed meaning in the English language is "forgive". In the Bible it always refers to debt cancellation.
Hmmmm.... Let's see.

Matthew 4:20 Immediately they cancelled the debt of their nets and followed Him.

Matthew 13:30 Cancel the debt of both to grow together until the harvest;
According to Webster’s Dictionary, forgive means: 1) to give up resentment against or the desire to punish; to stop being angry with; to pardon; 2) to give up all claim to punish or exact penalty for (an offense); to overlook; 3) to cancel or remit (a debt).
It doesn't make sense to look up an English word in an English dictionary, and assume that that was the Biblical meaning.

Here is another example of where this was done, and where it leads:

In the King James and the New King James, we read:

John 14:2 "In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Our dictionaries give a definition of "mansion" as "a large stately house". It has been assumed widely that this saying of Jesus means that He was saying that He would go to heaven a prepare a personal mansion for every individual who goes there.

A song was written, based on this popular idea "I've got a mansion just over the hill top". The song begins, "I'm satisfied with just a cottage below, a little silver and a little gold." I can't remember the next words exactly, but it states at one point, "I've got a gold one [mansion] that is silver lined."

However in the 1600s when the King James Version was prepared, "mansion" simply meant "abode" or "dwelling place". This comes out a few verses later even in the King James:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

There are two basic meanings of "aphiemi" in Greek. One is to leave or forsake or leave behind or depart, and the other is to permit or allow.

In one context it is used of a man or woman who forsakes his spouse.

When used in the sense of forgiving a person's wrongdoing, one "leaves behind" the wrongdoing. It is never held against the person again. Relations with the person are just as if they had never done it.

Sometimes the idea of the word coupled with "sin" does not refer to the "forgiveness of sin" but to the "forsaking of sin".
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Post by _Paidion » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:49 am

A couple of times now you've seemed to imply that forgiveness precludes justice.
I understand the word “justice” as a synonym for “fairness”. Sometimes correction is a necessary element of justice, and you might be using “justice” in that sense. But if a person has truly repented, he does not require correction, for he has already been corrected. However, if you mean he “ought to be punished” because he “deserves” the punishment for what he has done [C.S. Lewis’s theory of punishment], I can’t go along with that. I do not believe that God punishes in that way, and neither should we.
Using our child molester again, let's say that before the mother discovers what has taken place, he has had a conversion experience. Perhaps, as he comes to her full of remorse and repentance, and with all the proper body language, etc., this is the first inkling for her that something had occurred. She is assured by his demeanor, and perhaps a leading of the Holy Spirit, that his repentance is real.

Would her forgiveness have to include her refusal to press charges against him?


I think so. For if she pressed charges this would be an indication of her not having forgiven him. Here’s another example. Suppose you stole an item from a friend’s house that you especially admired. Later you were convicted by the Lord, and you repented of your action. You return the item to your friend’s house and ask her forgiveness. She replies, “I forgive you with my whole heart.” But then, after you have left, she reports the theft to the police. Would you think that she had truly forgiven you?
Actually, if he was, as we've been saying it, "truly repentant," wouldn't/shouldn't he confess his crime to the police himself?
He certainly should. I'm not sure that in every case he would. For he may be afraid to do so …. afraid he’ll lose his job and afraid of rejection by other people. So I am not sure whether or not a truly repentant person would necessarily confess his crime to the police.
(I still feel a little abashed that I keep asking you these questions. I am really thrilled that you take the time to patiently lay out your thoughts for me. Really, if it's a bother, don't feel obligated to keep on answering.)
I know you are truly searching for God’s answer to the matter of true forgiveness. I am happy to share with you my understanding for what it's worth..
One last question: How did you make the umlaut?
The diacritic mark together with the letter together forms a complete character which you must print.

Make certain that your “num lock” is on. To make ü, hold down the Alt key while you type 129 on the numeric keyboard. (It won’t work using the numbers above the alphabetic keyboard)

Here are numeric codes for the other umlauted vowels:

ä 132
ë 137
ï 139
ö 148
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Paidion
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_Michelle
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Post by _Michelle » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:16 pm

Paidion, thanks for your answer. I think what you've said makes sense, but I want to think about it for a little while.


ä ë ï ö ü
(thanks!)
sehr schön
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