True Forgiveness

[steve7150]

But why did Jesus ask His Father to forgive them unless it was because He hoped God would bring them to repentance first? Remember, Jesus explicitely claimed that He had power to forgive sins. So why did He pray when He could have forgiven them on the spot if that was all He wanted?Homer




Very good point Homer and it strengthens your case. There is another possibility that will sound far fetched and i think unprovable but here it is.
On the cross Jesus said "My God why have you forsaken me" and i take that to mean Jesus on the cross really was mankinds representative and our substitute and in that role being separated from his Father who is the source of his power IMO, he could not actually forgive sins on that cross. Can't prove it, but on that cross, he was us.

[steve7150]

then just what does "forgiveness" mean? Does it simply mean to let go of ill feelings toward the person? If so, then what does it mean for God to forgive us?





Letting go of ill feelings which can be bitterness is a big accomplishment, and unconditional forgiveness is in harmony with Jesus telling us to love our enemies. Loving our enemies isn't conditioned on their repentence, praying for those who persecute us isn't linked to their repentence, it's rising above our emotions and obeying God.
As far as God forgiving us , he is our judge and judges rightly and can dictate our repentence but we are warned to be careful about judging as Jesus implied regarding the adulteresses accusers.

[Homer]

How does God treat the repentant sinner after He has been forgiven? It seems to me in some cases at least that He treats the person differently than He otherwise would have. In the story of David and his sin with Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah, I do not think David was treated the same after he confessed his sin. In 2 Samuel 12:13 David confessed his sin to Nathan, God's prophet. Nathan then informed David "The Lord also has taken away your sin". And then God proceeds to take the life of David's child because of David's sin.

And then we have the case of Moses striking the rock twice and not being allowed to lead the people into the promised land. Are we to believe Moses was not forgiven?

Homer

[steve7150]

And then we have the case of Moses striking the rock twice and not being allowed to lead the people into the promised land. Are we to believe Moses was not forgiven?








I'm not sure i follow your answer but i was'nt talking about God's forgiveness toward man but whether we are commanded to forgive unconditionally toward others or must we wait until they repent.
I think most unbelievers will forgive their offender if he repents or seems remorseful but i think Jesus expects more from his followers.

[Homer]

Hi Steve7150,

The point I was trying to make in my reference to the cases of David and Moses is that I believe you can truly forgive someone without necessarily treating them as though the offense never took place. It appears to me that God treated both David and Moses differently after they sinned and were forgiven than He did prior to their sin.

God bless, Homer

[steve7150]

The point I was trying to make in my reference to the cases of David and Moses is that I believe you can truly forgive someone without necessarily treating them as though the offense never took place. It appears to me that God treated both David and Moses differently after they sinned and were forgiven than He did prior to their sin.




Amen!

[Paidion]

The point I was trying to make in my reference to the cases of David and Moses is that I believe you can truly forgive someone without necessarily treating them as though the offense never took place.

I still haven't heard any clear explanation of what you mean by "forgive".

[Paidion]

Something I just came across today induced me to examine this thread again. It is an old thread and a long one! And a very important one! I have just read through a lot of it again today, and feel that its resurrection is important.

But why did Jesus ask His Father to forgive them unless it was because He hoped God would bring them to repentance first? Remember, Jesus explicitely claimed that He had power to forgive sins. So why did He pray when He could have forgiven them on the spot if that was all He wanted?

Very good point Homer and it strengthens your case...

Also if Jesus had said, "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing" as we read in many of our Bibles, then this looks like easy forgiveness, and not true forgiveness that is contingent upon repentance. But DID Jesus pray these words?

I have a book which is a transcript of all extant manuscripts of the Greek New Testament prior to 300 A.D. The ONLY extant manuscript prior to 300 A.D. that contains the passage in question (Luke 23:33-35), is papyrus 75. Interestingly in verse 34, the words, "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing" is notable by its absence. It simply isn't there!

[robbyyoung]

I have a book which is a transcript of all extant manuscripts of the Greek New Testament prior to 300 A.D. The ONLY extant manuscript prior to 300 A.D. that contains the passage in question (Luke 23:33-35), is papyrus 75. Interestingly in verse 34, the words, "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing" is notable by its absence. It simply isn't there!

Hi Paidion,

That's very interesting, however, we have no way of confirming if papyrus 75 is the one in error. This is the inherent problem "in confirmation" issues by not having original documents. All the more reason to appreciate what the original audience had, 2000 years ago, verses what we can only learn from a, at times, inacccurate historical point of view. It is most definitly challenging.

By the way, what is the name of the book you are referring to?

God Bless.

[Michelle]

Something I just came across today induced me to examine this thread again. It is an old thread and a long one! And a very important one! I have just read through a lot of it again today, and feel that its resurrection is important.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread! I thought about it in the aftermath of the Charleston shooting. I'm going to re-read this later today.