The Narrow Path Ministries

Does any feel that it is ok to go to war? I believe that under the new covenant we are to wage war with the gospels and not machine guns. It seems to me that the early church did a bang up job at over running the roman empire with the use of armed resistance or army. Any thoughts?

Jim

If my government instituted a military draft, I would be handed a rifle and told to kill the enemy. Jesus told me to love and pray for my enemy, even do good to them. Shooting them in the face doesn't quite square with that so I would not accept the command from government. I do, however, believe it's the government's job to protect it's borders and citizens, since it's a secular institution. Since people like myself are the VAST minority among Christians (in America) I doubt we'd ever see a dent in our military force from a few pacifist Jesus follwers. I would, under current law, be arrested and thrown in prison though.

You asked about war but sometimes these dicussions dovetail into personal self-denfense. If someone is seeking to harm an innocent person in my presence, I will proceed to physically protect the innocent party. If the attack is against me, I might have the option of subduing the other person without critically harming him... but I'm trained to do that. It's a nuanced issue with many variables. I think that, for such things, one can only go on principle and not rule.

Jim wrote:Does any feel that it is ok to go to war? I believe that under the new covenant we are to wage war with the gospels and not machine guns. It seems to me that the early church did a bang up job at over running the roman empire with the use of armed resistance or army. Any thoughts?

Jim

I fully agree with what JC has said.

I for one, could not go to war.

I am more or less a pacifist. However, if my intervention could prevent the immediate harm of another in my presense, I think I should do something to help, because I would certainly like someone to help me (Matt. 7:12).

God bless,

I believe that God tells us to obey those in authority over us. He also tells us that He uses nations/wars for His will. As such, I'd have no problem fighting if I felt that the Commander In Chief was being used by God and/or I believed that the fight was a just one that protected my family. I believe that there are always multiple motives in war. I'm not discounting that there may be a money motive, an oil motive, a power grab, or whatever. But if I felt that the war was either just or Divinely instigated, I don't think I could conscientiously object to war in general or some other motive behind it without also going against my conscience that it is my responsibility to protect my family and obey those God has placed over me.
D.

Though I sympathize with JC and Derek, I do not fully agree. I don't believe that going to war is always the wrong thing for a Christian. I believe that as Christians we are called to do the loving thing, and at times that may include going to war. Especially if it involves protecting the innocent in our society.

If I am willing to (on a small scale) step in to conflict in the defense of a child or women who is being abused or about to be murdered, and I am required to take the life of the perpetrator in doing so, than why would it be wrong to do so on a large scale (the protection of Jews in WWII or Christians in the Sudan)?

On another note, it is possible to serve in the military without carrying a gun. One may serve as a Medic, or and military Chaplin.

Personally it would be a tough decision. I would certainly have to weigh the merits of the conflict.

Robin

I would go to war but not as a rifleman but as a medic or something close to that. I believe there is a place for Christians to bring glory to God in every situation so if I was called upon - even at 55 - I would do that which I know would glorify God.

Robin,

Hey there brother,

If I am willing to (on a small scale) step in to conflict in the defense of a child or women who is being abused or about to be murdered, and I am required to take the life of the perpetrator in doing so, than why would it be wrong to do so on a large scale (the protection of Jews in WWII or Christians in the Sudan)?

You would inevitably have to kill innocent people for one thing. There is no such thing as a war where this does not happen.

I would not step in to help someone on a "small scale" if I knew that I had to kill the people around them to protect the one person.

When serving in the military, you will have to pledge to do what you are told, putting you under the yoke of those whose out rank you, whether they have Godly motives or not.

If one does not plan to keep said oath, (for instance, when it conflicts with Christian convictions), then one should not place themselves under this yoke, by vowing obedience in the first place. I am sure if you said, "I will obey those over me except where it conflicts with my conscience", on your first day in boot camp, they would send you packing.

Putting the inevitability of killing innocents aside, what if you had to fight another brother, who is merely "defending his country" and his family the same as you? He has made his judgement call on whether the war is right or not by hearing his country's angle on it as well. Is loyalty to someones country (of which we can only be said to be "passing through" biblically, as opposed to real citizens) enough to kill one who truly does share the same citizenship as ourselves? The citizenship in heaven.

On another note, it is possible to serve in the military without carrying a gun. One may serve as a Medic, or and military Chaplin.

This is true, and since I am ignorant of military operation, I can only say that I think, that even those in these positions can be called upon to fight if needed. Correct me if I'm wrong here.


DJ,

Hey man. It sure is good to get to read your posts again!

I believe that God tells us to obey those in authority over us. He also tells us that He uses nations/wars for His will. As such, I'd have no problem fighting if I felt that the Commander In Chief was being used by God and/or I believed that the fight was a just one that protected my family.

I am all for protecting my family. However, going to another mans country, where his family is, and killing him (and the people around him in all likelyhood) because of the possibilty
of him coming here, is different than stopping an atack on ones family, in my opinion. For instance, if there is someone in my neighborhood who is percieved to be a threat to my family, it is never right for me to kill him because he might harm my family. A "preemptive strike" if you will. Now if he was actually trying to harm my family, that would be a different story.

But if I felt that the war was either just or Divinely instigated, I don't think I could conscientiously object to war in general or some other motive behind it without also going against my conscience that it is my responsibility to protect my family and obey those God has placed over me.

I am not sure how somone could determine if a war was "Divinely instigated", in order to obey or disobey.

I think that things are very different under the New Covenant, and this makes the notion of a divinely instigated war problematic. At least as far as being able to say, "God has ordained that Amerca fight country x". At one time God did have "a nation", that could fight under His name. But I don't think that is the case since the cross. Now God's "nation" is now made of all people, tribes and tongues, and I am not sure how He could pit that portion of His "Heavenly nation" which is on American soil, against that portion on foreign soil.

Now there are ambassadors for this Heavenly Nation all over the world, and there is no one country that is more a part of it than another. There is no way to determine if America is on "God's side" in a war or not.

That's not to say that God may not use our nation to judge another, as He used the Assyrians, Babylonians or Romans, but that is a different thing in my opinion. Of course this also means that God may use another country to judge America.

I see the role of worldy government as contrasted with the role assigned to Christians in at least two passages.

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord...

Rom 13:4 For he [government, higher power] is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Whereas we are told not to "avenge ourselves", Paul says that the "higher powers" are to do just the opposite. It is there role to "execute wrath upon him that does evil". He is a "revenger", whereas we are told not to seek revenge.

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Again, the government is to punish evil, etc. and we are to, like Christ, not revile against those that revile us, not threaten those who cause us suffering etc.

At least that's how I read these passages. Of course there's a lot more instruction on how to treat our enmies elsewhere, but not in the same context as the role of government. So I thought these were of particular relevence.

All this being said, I do not judge those who serve in the military, or those that think it's ok. I think you can most definitly be a Christian and fight in the military. I even think highly of those that do. Heck, I'm the only one at my church that feels the way I do! But I do disagree with it. I think, as with most things, there is a distinctly Christian role for us in warfare. And it's not on the killing feilds (IMO).

God bless,

Derek wrote:I am all for protecting my family. However, going to another mans country, where his family is, and killing him (and the people around him in all likelyhood) because of the possibilty
of him coming here, is different than stopping an atack on ones family, in my opinion. For instance, if there is someone in my neighborhood who is percieved to be a threat to my family, it is never right for me to kill him because he might harm my family. A "preemptive strike" if you will. Now if he was actually trying to harm my family, that would be a different story.

We are no longer living in isolation. It is a global "neighborhood". A lot of people don't get it, but we *are* at war. They are trying to kill us. We are also no longer left with the luxury of prosecuting after the fact. The "preemptive" nature of some of the things we have to do is due to the fact that the target isn't just an individual. It is our nation, our Christianity, our culture. If your neighbor down the street was building a nuke, and hadn't finished it or attacked your specific family yet but taken out other neighbors, would you sit idly by until it was too late to do anything about it? No. You'd call in the cops and he'd get stopped for violating the law.

Unfortunately, when we deal with madmen that violate international law and UN mandates that they country has agreed to, the international "cops", in the form of armies, have to put an end to it. Saying that we shouldn't get involved because it's over there and we are over here is like a beat cop not wanting to respond to a riot in the next neighborhood because that is someone else's beat...all the while knowing that the intention is for the rioters to eventually storm into your own neighborhood.

I am not sure how somone could determine if a war was "Divinely instigated", in order to obey or disobey.

Sometimes it is clearer than others. When radical muslims have actually voiced that they want to wipe all Jews and Christians from the face of the map, I'd say that the picture gets clearer.

Whereas we are told not to "avenge ourselves", Paul says that the "higher powers" are to do just the opposite. It is there role to "execute wrath upon him that does evil". He is a "revenger", whereas we are told not to seek revenge.

Unfortunately, the "avenging" government isn't a concept...it's people. We shouldn't *personally* take revenge on our own. That is being a vigilante. But doing it under the color of law is a separate thing all together.

Hate to disagree with you bro...I might not get invited to stick around. LOL
D.

Hate to disagree with you bro...I might not get invited to stick around. LOL

Please! Disagree on brother! What fun would the forum be if we all agreed on everything?!

It is our nation, our Christianity, our culture

But they have a nation too, and a culture, and within that nation and culture there are many of our brothers and sisters.

Unfortunately, when we deal with madmen that violate international law and UN mandates that they country has agreed to, the international "cops", in the form of armies, have to put an end to it. Saying that we shouldn't get involved because it's over there and we are over here is like a beat cop not wanting to respond to a riot in the next neighborhood because that is someone else's beat...all the while knowing that the intention is for the rioters to eventually storm into your own neighborhood.

I'm actually not commenting one way or the other as to whether or not the government and military should get involved. I believe the government is established by God as well. It's there for a reason. I'm only speaking to the Christian's role in said involvement. I think we have a distinctive part to play. But it is not a violent one.

Sometimes it is clearer than others. When radical muslims have actually voiced that they want to wipe all Jews and Christians from the face of the map, I'd say that the picture gets clearer.

There have always been those that sought to destroy Christians and Jews. But that is a different thing than two nations of the world warring with each other. Again, there are Christians in the nations that we go to war with. Our nation is fighting their nation. It's not Christians vs. Muslims. There is no "Christian nation" that is called by God to uphold and protect Christianity by force. The very idea is to my knowledge non-existent prior to Constantine.

The only "Christian nation" is the one that is spread over the whole globe, which consists of those who follow Jesus. Part of this nation is in any given country we decide to use military force against. I'm sure many of them die as "collateral damage" in our efforts to kill our enemies.

Unfortunately, the "avenging" government isn't a concept...it's people. We shouldn't *personally* take revenge on our own. That is being a vigilante. But doing it under the color of law is a separate thing all together.

This is the same thing that the folks at my church say. I still don't get it. While it's not ok for us to avenge ourselves, somehow the fact that you're in the military makes it ok. I don't think that the Christian life can be compartmentalized in such a way. When you have your "working for the govt. hat" on, you can kill the enemy, but "as a Christian" you are to love the enemy.

I can't make myself read Paul as saying "As an invidual Christian, you are not to avenge yourself, but as a worker in the government, you can avenge yourself".

God bless brother,

Derek wrote:Please! Disagree on brother! What fun would the forum be if we all agreed on everything?!

Well since you asked...

Our nation is fighting their nation.

I think our nation is fighting *some* elements of the society over in their nation. We didn't declare way on their entire country.

This is the same thing that the folks at my church say. I still don't get it. While it's not ok for us to avenge ourselves, somehow the fact that you're in the military makes it ok.

If I take someone that wronged me and lock them in a cage for a couple of years, that would be wrong. If society does that by putting them in jail, that is different. You may even be the person in the role of acting for society in putting them in the cell, but the context is entirely different. If a Jew kills a Samaritan, that is one thing. But if God calls for the Israelites to go into Samaria and wipe out the men, women, and children indicates that there *is* a difference or God commands people to disobey Him. I may not understand the distinctions fully when a man acts versus an army, but it is a lot easier on my mind than the contradiction that God tells us to love and then commands Israel into war if there *is* no distinction.
D.