The Narrow Path Ministries

From Rom 8.20 the question is , what is meant by creation? Does it mean inanimate things plus animals plus mankind or only mankind or excluding mankind?
At first blush it sounds like it means the universe because everything is part of creation and everything is subject to the law of decay.
In Rom 8.19 "the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God." Do inanimate things eagerly wait or can it be not willing if it does'nt have a will?
I think Paul is contrasting Christ and his impact verses Adam's impact and the question gets back to whether Adam's sin impacted the universe or just mankind.
Rom 5.12 "through one man sin entered the world and death through sin , and thus death spread TO ALL MEN"
From Rom 5.18 "through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation even so through one man's righteous act the free gift came to all men resulting in justification of life."
1st Cor 15.22 "For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ all shall be made alive."
Again here and in many other places Paul contrasts Christ and Adam , i don't see him much concerned with the redemption of animals or materials.
So the question is back to whether Adam's fall only caused men to sin or the entire 2nd law of thermodynamics?
In Gen 2.16 God said "of every tree of the garden you may freely eat" which means that in the process of eating fruit there would have been the death of the fruit even without sin.
Also Adam apparently lived outside Eden and was brought in, Gen 2.15 "God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it."
My guess is outside of Eden , thermodynamics was at work just as it was in the universe. I think Adam's sin brought death to men not to creation and that it is mankind that "eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God."
Rom 8.21 "because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

Steve7150,

Since Adam was put into the garden to tend and keep it, do you think that might imply the second law of termodynamics? (i.e. that the garden was in need of tending?)

I've honestly never thought about this before, always imagining Eden as this blissful self-sustaining paradise that needed no upkeep.

It's an interesting question.

I think Rom 8:22 is probably an example of hyperbole. Does the following verse apply at all?

Luk 19:40 And He answered and said to them, I tell you that if these should be silent, the stones would cry out.

perry wrote:

Since Adam was put into the garden to tend and keep it, do you think that might imply the second law of termodynamics? (i.e. that the garden was in need of tending?)

i believe that it obviously does. i always wondered what adam actually did (did he have a rake and a hoe?) but obviously he was put there to perform some function in keeping the garden.

however, i do believe that non-human creation took a turn for the worse when adam and eve sinned. the ground was "cursed." i always thought that noxious weeds and pests (like poison ivy and skeeters) did not come about until after the fall.

i have also always thought that when the new heavens and earth are created, conditions will be restored to the pre-fall state.

TK

I personally doubt whether any fundamental laws of physics were changed by the fall. I read the passage as "THE Creation", emphasis on man as the climax of creation.

Of course, it might be just wishful thinking that somewhere in the Universe is a Perelandra...(C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy reference).

Since Adam was put into the garden to tend and keep it, do you think that might imply the second law of termodynamics? (i.e. that the garden was in need of tending?)


Yes as TK said i think the 2nd law was in effect before the fall which meant in the pre Adamic sin condition there was still the time dimension and there was decay in the universe.
Man apparently was a different type of creation then everything else with the goal of eternal life. Apparently to inherit eternal life we had to "know good and evil" which begs another question which is whether the fall was just Adam's free will decision or something that had to happen.
But my question was what was Paul referring to when he used the word "creation" and i think it is directed at "mankind" eagerly awaiting the revealing of the sons of God.