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The human nature of the Logos

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:50 am
by _Ely
Hey folks,

There are three creeds which are apparently, the bedcrock of orthodox Trinitarian Christian theology: the Nicene, the Chalcedon and Athanasian. Look at what they say about the second person of the Trinity. (from: http://www.crivoice.org/creedsearly.htm ... s'%20Creed )
Nicene Creed (325)
[Lord, Jesus Christ] came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made truly human.
Chalcedon (451)
[Lord Jesus Christ] is perfect both in deity and in humanness; this selfsame one is also actually God and actually man, with a rational soul and a body. He is of the same reality as God as far as his deity is concerned and of the same reality as we ourselves as far as his humanness is concerned; thus like us in all respects, sin only excepted
The Athanasian Creed
It is furthermore necessary for eternal salvation truly to believe that our Lord Jesus Christ also took on human flesh. Now this is the true Christian faith: We believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and Man... he is man, born in time from the nature of his mother, fully God, fully man, with rational soul and human flesh, equal to the Father, as to his deity, less than the Father, as to his humanity; and though he is both God and Man, Christ is not two persons but one, one, not by changing the deity into flesh, but by taking the humanity into God; one, indeed, not by mixture of the natures, but by unity in one person.
Now, all these creeds state with unanimity that the second person is fully man and fully God at the same time. From the incarnation, he now has "two natures" - one nature is fully divine, the other nature is fully human. I assume that most people here would agree with this.

So, my question concerns the "human nature" of the logos. Is there any ontological difference between his human nature/humanity/humanness and our human nature/humanity/humanness?

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:31 am
by _TK
the simple answer is that we was born of a virgin. although the specifics are unclear, somehow mary was impregnated by an overshadowing of the Most High. if they had CSI technology back then, presumably Jesus would have human DNA. nonetheless, one the strands had a divine, vs human origin.

TK

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:39 am
by _Derek
So, my question concerns the "human nature" of the logos. Is there any ontological difference between his human nature/humanity/humanness and our human nature/humanity/humanness?

Personally, I don't care what the creeds say. The bible never mentions the "God/man ratio" to my knowledge. The bible never says Jesus was 100% God and 100% man (whatever that means! -200%?) It's a mystery, how He could be God and man at the same time (and I'm fine with that).

The bible says that He was a man, was tempted in all points like us, He got tired, learned, was hungry, thirsty, etc.. All things that men do, and God doesn't do. However, He doesn't have a human father, like us, so His "humanness" is different at least on this point.

The bible also says He's God (Jn. 1:1; Jn 20:28; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; Heb. 1:8; Is. 6:1 w/Jn 12:41 etc.).

Therefore He's both God and man. I don't care to take it further than that. When we discuss whether or not He was "fully' man or "fully" God, and "how much" of each, we are merely speculating on something the bible says nothing about.

So my answer to your question is "I don't know" if Jesus was different ontologically. The bible does not tell us that I'm aware of.

God bless!

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:25 am
by _STEVE7150
As i understand Phil 2.6 He emptied himself of his divinity first and then was born to a women, and according to Hebrews, was like us in every way.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:08 pm
by _Derek
STEVE7150 wrote:As i understand Phil 2.6 He emptied himself of his divinity first and then was born to a women, and according to Hebrews, was like us in every way.
So did He cease being God?

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:07 pm
by _STEVE7150
So did He cease being God?


To use Al Gore's expression he must have put his diety in a "lockbox" while he walked the earth as a real man who got tired and hungry and even died , so no he did'nt cease being God the Son yet that part of him apparently could be separated.
Clearly this is way beyond our limited understanding.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:01 pm
by _Derek
My point is, though He was like us, if He was in any way God, then He wasn't "like us in every way", for that would require that we be God.

Only Unitarians can think that He was "like us in every way". Even Arians (like the JW's) believe that He was an angel, who pre-existed before coming here.

Just so we're clear here; I interpret Philippians 2 the same way as you. Our difference there is probably only semantic.

God bless,

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:13 pm
by _STEVE7150
Just so we're clear here; I interpret Philippians 2 the same way as you. Our difference there is probably only semantic.


Did you know that denominations have split over this very issue? How do you interpret "Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect" Heb 2.14-17.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:08 pm
by _Derek
STEVE7150 wrote:Just so we're clear here; I interpret Philippians 2 the same way as you. Our difference there is probably only semantic.


Did you know that denominations have split over this very issue? How do you interpret "Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect" Heb 2.14-17.

I knew there was a verse that said something like that! I couldn't find it earlier. This obviously contradicts what I said in my last post. I stand corrected!

Let me restate my position here.

The author of Hebrews obviously thinks that Jesus is God, (1:8), that the world was created by, (1:2,10), and upheld by, (1:3) Jesus. So He cannot be saying that Jesus somehow un-did all that.

Jesus = God, Creator, Sustainer of all things / Me= human, created, a thing being sustained.

Jesus pre-existed, so He could not make it so that He didn't pre-exist to be like us, who did not pre-exist. He didn't have a human father, so here also it couldn't be said that He was like us.

Jesus= pre-existant, God Almightly litterally for a Father / Me= not pre-existent, Mike McCoy's my Dad.

This is what I mean when I say He was not like us in "every way".

I think that when it says He became like us in every way, He means that Jesus not only became a man, but that He lived here as a man, emptied of His divine attributes. Like you said, He became tired, hungry, He learned, and even died. To put it more simply, the author is just saying that He became a man, with which I agree.

Yet, in saying all of this, it cannot be said that He ceased being God. How can God, cease being God? He can voluntarilly give up attributes I suppose, but He cannot be God, and not be God simultaneously. That is contradictory.

I think this is a good proof text against Unitarianism by the way, becuase why would a man, who was already like his brethren is every respect, have to "be made like" his brethren in every respect?

God bless,

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:13 pm
by _Paidion
Derek asked:
So did He cease being God?
In becoming man, He divested Himself of all of His divine attibutes ("emptied Himself" Philippians 2:7). He retained none of His previous glory except His identity as the only begotten God (John 1:18 all manuscripts prior to 300 A.D.).

Hebrews 1:2 does not state that the world was created by Him, but through Him. God the Father is the creator of all things.

...in these last days he [the Father] has spoken to us by a Son, whom he [the Father] appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he [the Father] created the ages.

In verse 10, the Son "founded" the earth, and the heavens are the work of His hands, for He was directly used by the Father to create the heavens and the earth.

While He was on earth He raised the dead, healed the sick, and walked on water. Or did He? He said, "Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing from Himself..." John 5:19. He also said, "I can do nothing from myself..." John 5:30. The Father did everything through Him.