No need for repentance???

[Guest]

Here is a question I brought up in another thread. It was kind of off topic, so here it is in its own thread.....

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Who are the "righteous" in this verse that need no repentance?

Luke 15:7
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Who are the "just persons" in this verse who need no repentance?

According to Paul, "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23). So, we must assume that being "righteous" or "just" (as described by Jesus) does NOT mean never having sinned. So, who was Jesus talking about, and what did He mean when He said that they need no repentance?

Todd

[Guest]

The words as recorded in each of these accounts were said in the context of the scribes and pharisees asking, "Why does this man eat with tax collectors and sinners?"

It was the scribes and Pharisees who thought they were righteous persons who needed no repentance.

It was not that Jesus really believed there were such persons. He said these words sarcastically.

[Guest]

although i cannot fault paidion's reasoning, i always thought the righteous were those who had ALREADY repented. i could buy into the sarcasm idea a little more if Jesus had said "the self-righteous."

TK

[Guest]

Jesus' sarcasm, like that of many people in our day, was subtle. Consider the following example, which doubtless makes reference to the slaying, by Israelites, of the great prophets which God had sent to them.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.

[Guest]

Hello, gentlemen,

In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord. [emphasis added]

Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

n the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord. [emphasis added]



Isn't this the same Zechariah who shortly thereafter had his lips zipped up because of his lack of faith that his wife could be pregnant. Apparently righteousness is not necessarily literal nor is it a permanent condition since we are all leaky vessels.
I agree with Paidion in that Jesus was not literally calling people righteous.

[Guest]

Hello, gentlemen,

In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord. [emphasis added]

Shlamaa,
Emmet

Thanks, Emmet. I don't believe that Jesus was being sarcastic when he spoke of those who "need no repentance." I believe he was speaking of people as you have quoted about here. If this is true, then we must theorize what constitutes "righteous" in this context. Let me suggest that someone who "fears God and does what it right" (Acts 10:35) is righteous.

1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

This does not mean that this person has not sinned, but could be described by this verse also....

Eze 18:21-22
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.

Therefore, I think it is more likely that TK's answer is closer to the truth than to say that Jesus was being sarcastic. That's my opinion.

Can any other conclusions be drawn regarding these righteous ones?

Todd

[Guest]

Thanks, Emmet. I don't believe that Jesus was being sarcastic when he spoke of those who "need no repentance." I believe he was speaking of people as you



So Jesus either feels many need not repent although he came to "save men from their sins" and this is the same Jesus who said "men love the darkness because their deeds are evil."
So which does Jesus believe? I think his actions answer that question.

[Guest]

.... and this is the same Jesus who said "men love the darkness because their deeds are evil."

Steve,

Does He say that ALL men love the darkness because their deeds are evil?

Todd

[Guest]

Jesus consistently called the scribes and Pharisees "hypocrites" or "brood of vipers" or that they put extra burdens on people, "do what they say not what they do."
So in Mark 2.7 or Luke 15 , when Jesus references the scribes and Pharisees and calls them righteous after they accuse him of favoring tax collectors and sinners , i think his meaning is not difficult to figure out.